Dining plan cost OUTRAGEOUS for 2012

[havoc315]

What I do find amusing is: The mug is $15-ish OOP, right? So, if you're staying for 10 days, like we are, you're seeing an approx $50 increase in total cost, per kid, for the DDP. That's one expensive mug!

The price of the mug is such a phony thing. It's value is really totally different for each individual, ranging from worthless to gold.
It's like when an informercial says, "And we throw in the can opening... A $50 value, for free!" -- and it's 10-cent piece of plastic garbage.

Even putting aside that you can go to the supermarket and get a large bottle of soda for $1-$2....
Knowing that an individual soda at the food court costs about $2.50... It means that you need to refill the soda mug on 6 separate occasions just to break even at the $15.
Thus, I truly don't understand families that claim to have gotten tons of value out of the mug. I guess for people who spend lots of whole days at the resort, there is time to use the mug. But for people who spend most of the day in the parks, and are already getting beverages with their meals, I just don't see the opportunity to use the mugs all that often. I see it as a stretch just to "break even" on the mug value. (Grab coffee every single morning, and you'd break even. But then again, they give you a coffee maker to make coffee free in your room, so that's really still a loss.)

 

[havoc315]

2. I wouldn't choose to do a sit-down every day. I like SOME sit down meals, but especially in Epcot, there are more than enough interesting counter services for us.

Bingo. This is a big one. And it's not just the TS meals. The DDP only has the potential to save you money if you truly want to do exactly 1 TS per night AND exactly 1 CS per night.

For me, I have no trouble with the TS -- But I have trouble with the CS. I dislike CS. Especially when having lunch in a crowded park, I don't like the to wait on line and carry a tray.
So while I might have a couple of CS meals, I wouldn't have 1 per day. And I certainly wouldn't get dessert at CS, or even get the most expensive CS meals.
So that really eliminates the chance of the DDP working for me.

So really, you need to rigidly want *exactly* 1 TS and 1 CS per day, for any hope of the DDP working.

I really wish they made the TiW card available to everyone.

 

[pilferk]

The price of the mug is such a phony thing. It's value is really totally different for each individual, ranging from worthless to gold.
It's like when an informercial says, "And we throw in the can opening... A $50 value, for free!" -- and it's 10-cent piece of plastic garbage.

Even putting aside that you can go to the supermarket and get a large bottle of soda for $1-$2....
Knowing that an individual soda at the food court costs about $2.50... It means that you need to refill the soda mug on 6 separate occasions just to break even at the $15.
Thus, I truly don't understand families that claim to have gotten tons of value out of the mug. I guess for people who spend lots of whole days at the resort, there is time to use the mug. But for people who spend most of the day in the parks, and are already getting beverages with their meals, I just don't see the opportunity to use the mugs all that often. I see it as a stretch just to "break even" on the mug value. (Grab coffee every single morning, and you'd break even. But then again, they give you a coffee maker to make coffee free in your room, so that's really still a loss.)

Pretty much agree.

There's ways to hit that $15 break even point...but they're not ways that I would find of any benefit. ESPECIALLY not the way we vacation (DVC villa, and we stock our fridge). Not only do I not want to schlep to the food court/pool every time I want a drink....I rarely want anything Disney offers from the fountains, anyway. Maybe their hot chocolate, occasionally. But my wife and I don't do a lot of soda, "fake" juice, or sports drinks (and neither do my kids). I like coffee too much to drink the stuff Disney offers in their food courts (YUK!).

IF I were staying in a hotel room, and IF my room was relatively close to the food court, and IF they offered stuff I wanted to drink (notice all the "ifs"?)....maybe I'd pick one up. But I'd also rather pay the OOP cost than have $5, per day, tacked on to the DDP cost. Because if I'm on site for more than 3 nights (and I'd guess many folks are).....it makes no sense to buy my mug that way. It's not even, at that point, a "value add". It's the opposite, if anything.

 

[havoc315]

IF I were staying in a hotel room, and IF my room was relatively close to the food court, and IF they offered stuff I wanted to drink (notice all the "ifs"?)....maybe I'd pick one up.

The way most of the hotels are set up, not many rooms are all that close to the food court...

If they really wanted to enhance value for the mugs -- they would let you refill them at the pools. (there may actually be 1 or 2 hotels where this is allowed). That's the only time I truly would have use for it. I *may* occasionally take the mugs to get refills while the family is at the pool. But then it's still a matter of schlepping from the pool to the food court.
So if I was planning on spending hours at the pool, every single day, then maybe, possibly, I could get some value out of the mug.

 

[pilferk]

Bingo. This is a big one. And it's not just the TS meals. The DDP only has the potential to save you money if you truly want to do exactly 1 TS per night AND exactly 1 CS per night.

Yes, if you're talking about "on average".

Not exactly if you mean you have to specifically do one TS/ one CS per day.

In other words:

There was a day, during our recent Oct trip, where we did 2 TS one day (character breakfast, sit down dinner) and 2 CS the next day (one in park, one at our resort).

We still saved money. We still AVERAGED 1 TS a day and 1 CS a day....but we didn't use the credits specifically for 1 TS/1 CS EACH day.

I really wish they made the TiW card available to everyone.

Me too.

I've got to sit down and figure out what (if any) the savings will be for one DVC discounted AP + TIW card vs 10 day hopper at UT + OOP costs vs 10 day hopper at UT + DDP costs for our early Dec 2012 trip.

I'm pretty sure (99%) the DDP option will NOT save us money. I THINK it will actually save us money, this time, to do the TIW/DVC AP route...even though we won't have another trip (unless something for work pops up) until 2014. It might not save a ton, but it'll save us something.

 

[pilferk]

The way most of the hotels are set up, not many rooms are all that close to the food court...

If they really wanted to enhance value for the mugs -- they would let you refill them at the pools. (there may actually be 1 or 2 hotels where this is allowed). That's the only time I truly would have use for it. I *may* occasionally take the mugs to get refills while the family is at the pool. But then it's still a matter of schlepping from the pool to the food court.
So if I was planning on spending hours at the pool, every single day, then maybe, possibly, I could get some value out of the mug.

Kidani Village at the Animal Kingdom Villas has (I think) filling stations in the gift shop and at the pool bar. That's why I put that in. Kidani is where we usually stay (and it doesn't even have a food court...unless I want to take a LONG walk over to Mara at Jambo House).

Question: Have they rolled out the new barcode tech on cups/mugs that they were piloting back in October?

If they have...you COULD (not that they would) put a filling station on every floor, near the ice machines. The bar codes would be your inventory control mechanism.

 

[distherapy]

The mugs are also no value for our family, so I am sure to leave them out of our analysis when we determine whether the deluxe dining plan is worth it. I'm sure when our kids are disney "adults" the math may change dramatically.

 

[havoc315]

Yes, if you're talking about "on average".

Not exactly if you mean you have to specifically do one TS/ one CS per day.

In other words:

There was a day, during our recent Oct trip, where we did 2 TS one day (character breakfast, sit down dinner) and 2 CS the next day (one in park, one at our resort).

We still saved money. We still AVERAGED 1 TS a day and 1 CS a day....but we didn't use the credits specifically for 1 TS/1 CS EACH day.



Me too.

I've got to sit down and figure out what (if any) the savings will be for one DVC discounted AP + TIW card vs 10 day hopper at UT + OOP costs vs 10 day hopper at UT + DDP costs for our early Dec 2012 trip.

I'm pretty sure (99%) the DDP option will NOT save us money. I THINK it will actually save us money, this time, to do the TIW/DVC AP route...even though we won't have another trip (unless something for work pops up) until 2014. It might not save a ton, but it'll save us something.

Point 1-- yes, of course. When I said exactly 1 TS and 1 CS per day, that does of course allow a certain degree of time-shifting the meals. Though even that does decrease the value. As you truly maximize the value by using TS for dinner and CS for lunch -- And you can't eat 2 dinners on the same night. (Yes, you can do a 2-credit dinner -- but that's usually not a great value on the DDP either).
Thus, if you did a TS breakfast and a TS dinner 1 day, while you might be using all your credits, you are probably losing some value on the breakfast.

Thus, a family doing lots and lots of time-shifting of their meals, may also not really see value under the plan.

As to the TiW card -- If you are doing lots of CS, not necessarily a great value. But if you plan on doing a lot of TS, alcohol, or appetizers... then the TiW savings can really add up.

 

[cmurray234]

Yes, if you're talking about "on average".

Not exactly if you mean you have to specifically do one TS/ one CS per day.

In other words:

There was a day, during our recent Oct trip, where we did 2 TS one day (character breakfast, sit down dinner) and 2 CS the next day (one in park, one at our resort).

We still saved money. We still AVERAGED 1 TS a day and 1 CS a day....but we didn't use the credits specifically for 1 TS/1 CS EACH day.

I don't wish to speak for another poster, but I know that my point was that our family wouldn't choose to do 8 TS restaurants on an 8-night trip. We would probably do more like 4 or 5. And I think his point was that his family would not choose to eat at 8 CS restaurants in the same scenario. For our two families, paying for 1 TS and 1 CS per day is not economically sound, since we would only do so because that's what the DDP stipulates.

And honestly, you can throw in the "mandatory" dessert in with this argument as well. None of us like dessert right after dinner. And with my calculations, the only real way to make good use of the DDP is to get all of the desserts that are offered.

 

[tarheelmjfan]

To be fair to chmurf, I think what he/she is saying is most kids (not all) would prefer to be riding rides than sitting in a restaurant. Sure, most of them are fine with sit down meals. Some (not all) know how to behave properly. Most enjoy playing games during dinner, or discussing their day, if that's the option they're given. IMO, the point chmurf was trying to make is they probably don't enjoy it more than riding Winnie the Pooh. Dinner is an everyday event for kids. Riding rides at WDW isn't. Most adults, OTOH, enjoy the chance to sit & enjoy a nice meal, more than riding rides non-stop. It's one thing to say a child is fine at a TS meal, but another to say it's the highlight of the day. For many adults, it's the thing they look forward to the most.

My child was one who enjoyed nice meals on vacation. He gets up every morning wanting to know where we're eating that day. That's a part of our vacation. It's all he's known. TBH, I never asked him whether he'd rather be riding rides or dining in TS restaurants. Who knows what his response would have been, if I'd asked before he became accustomed to TS meals being a part of vacation? I do know that out of my nieces & nephews my DS is the only one of 10 that would have chosen a nice dinner over a ride. The other 9 would prefer a quick meal on the run. They weren't preconditioned to think nice meals were part of vacation though. Given a choice my DS may have been the same way. I don't know. Before we jump on chmurf, we need to consider the fact that saying a child is fine at or enjoys TS meals isn't the same as saying they enjoy it as much as riding Dumbo or Splash Mtn. Odds are they probably don't.

All that said, I do think it's the adults vacation as much as the kids. We should do things we enjoy also. If we're planning a trip solely for the child, we should probably give some objective thought to what they would actually enjoy more. It's not necessarily what we want them to enjoy more. I really think chmurf was just trying to be helpful & offer a different POV.

 

[pilferk]

Point 1-- yes, of course. When I said exactly 1 TS and 1 CS per day, that does of course allow a certain degree of time-shifting the meals. Though even that does decrease the value. As you truly maximize the value by using TS for dinner and CS for lunch -- And you can't eat 2 dinners on the same night. (Yes, you can do a 2-credit dinner -- but that's usually not a great value on the DDP either).
Thus, if you did a TS breakfast and a TS dinner 1 day, while you might be using all your credits, you are probably losing some value on the breakfast.

Largely true...but it also sort of depends on the breakfast. Some of the character/princess breakfasts top out what we would spend at a sit down (not character or buffet) dinner. But the point is good: You have to pay attention, and do a little work, to maximize the value.

As to the TiW card -- If you are doing lots of CS, not necessarily a great value. But if you plan on doing a lot of TS, alcohol, or appetizers... then the TiW savings can really add up.

We would do 1 TS every day (again, on average) whether we were on the DDP or not. We basically do one TS every day (on average) at home...it's just that the table happens to be in our dining room. We LIKE sit down meals...and our kids really prefer the variety (over the fast food type offerings at most of the CS places...Epcot not withstanding) they can get there.

Adult beverage consumption is minimal (in 10 days, my wife and I might have 2 adult beverages, each) at meal times. Desserts OR apps...never both (and we would, likely, split apps and maybe even desserts).

There will be 6 of us on this trip (3 adults, 1 "Disney Adult", and 2 kids). If we're ordering OOP, I would guess my 10 year old chooses to order off the kids menu, when she can.

I'll start preliminary pricing out within the next few weeks...but I've already talked with my wife. We're going to pick our restaurants, make our ADR's, and THEN crunch hard numbers and make ticket decisions/figure out how we're going to handle the food costs. At first blush, it looks like the "real" cost of the TIW card would be about $140 ($65 difference between 10 day hopper and DVC AP, + $75 for the card). We'd have to spend $700 on food at TS restaurants....something I think we'd easily do in 10 days time.

 

[tiki23]

This next trip in May is just my sis and I; we've booked the dining plan but have already been second-guessing that decision because we may not be up to eating that much food. We like the convenience of having the plan pre-paid and we've bought a mug every trip as a souvenir.

I'll be going with DH in late 2012 and he loves to eat at a different TS every day and he also likes to eat steak or scallops or salmon.

We've taken full family trips with paid DP and free DP and really loved having the plan, again for the convenience but also because 3 teens = hungry. We never lost a single credit and came out ahead, especially the 1st 2 trips that included tip and appetizer!

However, I'm only willing to pay a certain amount for convenience sake....so I need to figure out my breaking point.

We're taking another family reunion trip in late 2013 with about 12-15 people; we already know we'll be staying in a vacation home off-site and doing a lot of our own cooking....no way are we paying Disney rates for food or lodging!

 

[pilferk]

I don't wish to speak for another poster, but I know that my point was that our family wouldn't choose to do 8 TS restaurants on an 8-night trip. We would probably do more like 4 or 5. And I think his point was that his family would not choose to eat at 8 CS restaurants in the same scenario. For our two families, paying for 1 TS and 1 CS per day is not economically sound, since we would only do so because that's what the DDP stipulates.

Yup, I got it, now.

We would do both, whether we were on the DDP or not. Now..that being said, I doubt we'd order dessert at every CS, and we'd probably choose to split a couple apps at dinner, some nights, rather than EVERYONE ordering dessert. But, til now, the savings has been worth the lack of flexibility in WHAT we would/could order (and...we lugged CS desserts around for later snacks, and brought some TS desserts back to our room for later). It won't work for us now, for reasons I've mentioned in prior posts.

And honestly, you can throw in the "mandatory" dessert in with this argument as well. None of us like dessert right after dinner. And with my calculations, the only real way to make good use of the DDP is to get all of the desserts that are offered.

Desserts and snacks are really where your savings lie..at least when we've calculated it in the past.

 

[pilferk]

To be fair to chmurf, I think what he/she is saying is most kids (not all) would prefer to be riding rides than sitting in a restaurant. Sure, most of them are fine with sit down meals. Some (not all) know how to behave properly. Most enjoy playing games during dinner, or discussing their day, if that's the option they're given. IMO, the point chmurf was trying to make is they probably don't enjoy it more than riding Winnie the Pooh. Dinner is an everyday event for kids. Riding rides at WDW isn't. Most adults, OTOH, enjoy the chance to sit & enjoy a nice meal, more than riding rides non-stop. It's one thing to say a child is fine at a TS meal, but another to say it's the highlight of the day. For many adults, it's the thing they look forward to the most.

My child was one who enjoyed nice meals on vacation. He gets up every morning wanting to know where we're eating that day. That's a part of our vacation. It's all he's known. TBH, I never asked him whether he'd rather be riding rides or dining in TS restaurants. Who knows what his response would have been, if I'd asked before he became accustomed to TS meals being a part of vacation? I do know that out of my nieces & nephews my DS is the only one of 10 that would have chosen a nice dinner over a ride. The other 9 would prefer a quick meal on the run. They weren't preconditioned to think nice meals were part of vacation though. Given a choice my DS may have been the same way. I don't know. Before we jump on chmurf, we need to consider the fact that saying a child is fine at or enjoys TS meals isn't the same as saying they enjoy it as much as riding Dumbo or Splash Mtn. Odds are they probably don't.

All that said, I do think it's the adults vacation as much as the kids. We should do things we enjoy also. If we're planning a trip solely for the child, we should probably give some objective thought to what they would actually enjoy more. It's not necessarily what we want them to enjoy more. I really think chmurf was just trying to be helpful & offer a different POV.

Not to derail the entire thread any more, but your point is a double edged sword (and rather the point that many of us were making, just on the opposing edge).

The point you're talking about was painted with a rather broad brush, and pretty much pigeonholed ALL kids (and the person chmurf was responding to's children specifically) into the "don't REALLY want to sit at the table and eat a meal" category. Your own anecdote shows that's not true (and I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that your child was "preconditioned", either).

My point (and the point made by others) is similar to yours...but points the other way. That is: Not every kid fits into that bucket. Not every kid is miserable at an extended meal. Not every kid is "boiling" while sitting there, antsy to go jump on Splash Mountain. I can promise you that, if I gave my kids the choice between, say "Ohana's" and another ride on POTC....Ohana's would win.

I'm sure it's true of SOME kids....just as I'm sure it's true of SOME adults. Whether it's the majority or not...nobody really knows. But making the broad generalization isn't any more apt than it would be to say that NO kids feel the way chmurf portrayed.

 

[bledsoedoc]

pediatricians and nutritionists actually ...




It's not a question of ability, it's a question of biological clock.
When you start to eat, your intestine will secrete cholecystokinin. It's a peptidic hormone which, among thing, will act as a hunger suppressant.
This "suppression mechanism" is designed to avoid "over-eating".
The 20 minutes mark is a length where the brain is instructed that the meal has lasted long enough.

Of course people, kids and grown-ups are able to go over that 20 minutes limit, and they specially can do that if they have a good time and if the meal is broken into segments (with games in between)

But as you learn to ignore the message sent by this hormone, you risk to allow a wide range of eating disorders to settle in. Because you no longer listen to the warning signals your body sends. Of course this doesn't mean that you WILL get such disorders, but this is the right path to take if you're looking for trouble.
And if I'm stressing this point out, it's because I was raised in a family where meals were lengthy, and at 38, I stood 5'4'' and 350lbs ... now down to 250lbs just learning to listen to my body again (no fancy diet or WW crap)





And many european families end their family dinner with a smoke, this doesn't mean it's healthy just because it's a tradition

anyway, now I feel sorry for saying out loud what I think ...

I am a family physician. My kid does great at sit down meals. We do play games while we are waiting not while we DW is not the length of time eating it is the waiting to get a table, to order, for food to arrive. You are coming off preachy. You shouldn't be. You should know that families and kids are all different.
I do the disney dining plan because it works for my family. We have more time in the parks. TS is used as a quiet, get out of the chaos time. We all eat healthier because there are healthier choices. We are also safer b/c we talk with an actual chef about food allergies.
I found your post insulting and I am hoping that is not what you meant it to be. From one MD to another.

 

[tarheelmjfan]

Not to derail the entire thread any more, but your point is a double edged sword (and rather the point that many of us were making, just on the opposing edge).

The point you're talking about was painted with a rather broad brush, and pretty much pigeonholed ALL kids (and the person chmurf was responding to's children specifically) into the "don't REALLY want to sit at the table and eat a meal" category. Your own anecdote shows that's not true (and I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that your child was "preconditioned", either).

My point (and the point made by others) is similar to yours...but points the other way. That is: Not every kid fits into that bucket. Not every kid is miserable at an extended meal. Not every kid is "boiling" while sitting there, antsy to go jump on Splash Mountain. I can promise you that, if I gave my kids the choice between, say "Ohana's" and another ride on POTC....Ohana's would win.

I'm sure it's true of SOME kids....just as I'm sure it's true of SOME adults. Whether it's the majority or not...nobody really knows. But making the broad generalization isn't any more apt than it would be to say that NO kids feel the way chmurf portrayed.

Since my child is one who likes nice meals, I agree with those of you who think kids enjoy dining at WDW. I was just defending chmurf, because people were coming down on him/her so hard, & he/she did have a point. I don't see a need for some of the harsh replies that were posted when chmurf's post would apply to many, if they were looking at it objectively. I'm willing to admit my DS may now enjoy nice meals, because he was never given a choice. I don't know if that's the case, but it's a possibility. I really don't think chmurf's post was meant to be personal as many seem to have taken it.

Just to stay on topic, we never used DDP, because the basic plan doesn't fit our dining style, & we don't always order an appetizer, entree, & dessert each at dinner. We never eat that much at lunch. We also have a TIW card. Until this thread, I never knew we could possibly get an AP discount on the room & DDP. Now that I know that, we may consider getting DXDDP if it ends up being a better deal than a room + TIW discount.

 

[bledsoedoc]

The mug is one of the tricks they are using to claim savings though, but like you point out, for most its nothing but a cheap souveniere to bring home (room permitting).

The title of this thread is how in 2012 the dining plan prices have reached outrageous levels, yet people keep posting that 'gosh, when we added up our receipts in past years its always saved us money'.

The entire point of this thread is to point out that STARTING in 2012, the dining plan needs to be looked at much closer, because most people will lose money by buying this plan.

Why are people so snitty with each other on here? We are discussing the happiest place on earth...at least for this disney family.
This thread does not even know for sure the cost of the ddp. We have at least 3 different quotes floating around. And we don't know if prices will go up since it is now 2012 so ALL we have is the past experiences, so GOSH, I did add up our receipts. Best way to figure out if it saved us money. We added and subtracted and got a total. Yikes. Shame on me...

 

[Colleen27]

Knowing that an individual soda at the food court costs about $2.50... It means that you need to refill the soda mug on 6 separate occasions just to break even at the $15.
Thus, I truly don't understand families that claim to have gotten tons of value out of the mug. I guess for people who spend lots of whole days at the resort, there is time to use the mug. But for people who spend most of the day in the parks, and are already getting beverages with their meals, I just don't see the opportunity to use the mugs all that often. I see it as a stretch just to "break even" on the mug value. (Grab coffee every single morning, and you'd break even. But then again, they give you a coffee maker to make coffee free in your room, so that's really still a loss.)

We're one of those families that gets a lot of use out of the mugs, at least for the adults (if I were buying them I'd get 3 - one for each adult and one for the kids to share). Our usual habit is for the first one awake in the morning to go get coffee & tea while the other is getting ready/getting the kids ready, then we'll grab a refill on the way out to the parks and 2 or 3 in the evenings while we're relaxing around the resort. DH basically only drinks coffee or Coke, and I'm an iced tea junkie when I'm away from home because I'm picky about how water tastes. We also spend our arrival and departure days at the resort so that is more time that we're using the mugs, and we save the bottled drinks that come with our CS meals for the kids since there really isn't anything suitable on the refill stations for them.

Also, keep in mind that the value resorts don't have fridges or coffee makers. We got a LOT more use out of our mugs at Pop than at any other resort we've stayed at, because with no fridge we didn't bother having milk, juice, and soda delivered and with no coffee pot we had to head to the food court for that morning fix.

The souvenir value is also a small part of the appeal for me, since the mugs fit the cupholders in both DH & my vehicle and they're durable. DH uses our Disney mugs just about every day for work and I haven't bought him a travel mug since they changed to the car-friendly mug shape. But even with all of that, I only take the 3 mugs we would buy into account when we're comparing dining plans vs OOP costs.

I'm very curious about how the basic plan math will work out, and I'll be taking very detailed notes for my dining review. On paper I just don't see it being a savings if we'd paid for it, but since we're going during free dining and the other half of our travel group balked at the DxDDP upgrade we're going to give the basic plan a shot and I'll be paying careful attention to how it stacks up against the retail price.

 

[no capes darling]

Why are people so snitty with each other on here? We are discussing the happiest place on earth...at least for this disney family.
This thread does not even know for sure the cost of the ddp. We have at least 3 different quotes floating around. And we don't know if prices will go up since it is now 2012 so ALL we have is the past experiences, so GOSH, I did add up our receipts. Best way to figure out if it saved us money. We added and subtracted and got a total. Yikes. Shame on me...

It's unfortunate that the discussion about its merits or not, goes on and on and on. When this thread ends another will take its place, and so on and so on. Some people love the dining plan. Some people don't. Some people are on the fence and each side is trying to see who "wins" by convincing the on the fence people to see their way. It's all kinds of ridiculous.

 

[chmurf]

I don't see a need for some of the harsh replies that were posted when chmurf's post would apply to many

thank you.
Indeed, my post was designed to give my opinion and guidelines in what I (me, moi, myself) believe to be the general case when it comes to children.

Basically the whole post (that started the flame) was to say to the poster I replied to : "Don't impose your idea of perfect on a kid who may not have the same interests as yourself". And that on a very general basis when you first take a kid to Mickey's the last thing he'll care about is sitting at a table.

Now I do understand that parents do have children who do not fit into that mold.

But I did make sure to show that it was just an opinion and not an absolute truth by adding "my own 2 cents anyway" at the bottom of the post.

This got me sarcasm and underlying ideas that I did not know nothing about kids. And the way I felt it, it was inches close to implying I was a poor parent.
That was rude, insulting and uncalled for, and that's why on a later post I said that I was sorry that I spoke out on this thread.
Yet posters keep beating down, and some actually hope i was not insulting in my posts when it was me who felt insulted.

I really don't think chmurf's post was meant to be personal as many seem to have taken it.

thank you for noticing.
It was just a "I think, in my humble opinion, that kids tend not to like that"

Anyway, and that'll be my final word on this off-topic part, usually when people take it personnal, it because the arguments hit bullseye.
Much time wasted in flaming someone for what he had to say. Doesn't do anybody anygood.
Well I'll take it with a grain of salt, and I should try not to say what people are not willing to hear. My bad.

Now back on topic please