"Crowds" and "Wait Times" are no longer synonymous

[Dallas_Lady]

I've been around here a long time, and for years we equated long waits=high crowds. I think those days are gone, and a recent DISUnplugged podcast shed light as to why:

Basically, Disney is adjusting staffing and ride capacity based on crowds. So if you see a long wait for something, it doesn't mean the park is crowded. In fact, it could be the opposite, crowds could be relatively low, so Disney reduced staffing to save money which results in the rides are not operating at 100% capacity and therefore a longer wait.

It's like shopping at Walmart. They've got a ton of lanes, but during slow times only a few are open and the lines for those few are long. But then when it's busy they open more lanes and the lines are shorter.

Thoughts?

 

[brockash]

Yes, we've experienced first hand and it's annoying. I understand the business side of it, but it's still frustrating to me as a guest and makes me feel cheated every time I see every other boat on Pirates going through empty, or only half of Space/Big Thunder running, while we wait 45 mins. for something that should have taken half that, or only 1 bay open at Cosmic Rays etc....as in Disney doesn't care about my time I feel taken advantage of as a customer. There's not nearly the same incentive/perk to go during a more inconvenient time/slower time of the year - again a win for Disney though.

 

[pearlieq]

One of the final nails in the coffin for WDW for me. There is no longer a pleasant, uncrowded time to go. Waits are long and restaurants and pathways are miserably clogged, which is especially not fun when someone in our group needs to use a mobility device.

 

[sturner324]

My thoughts... I hate Walmart. Lol. It would be a shame if I start hating Disney too.

That podcast episode left me regretting even listening to it. I almost want to be blissfully unaware of such business tactics. I do understand their financial reasoning... but some decisions are just damaging to guest experience.

 

[jaceraden]

This is not new. It's been bumming us out for a while now.

 

[gatorlisa]

I think the irritating thing is that lower crowd times mean reduced park hours, which is fine when the low crowd times lead to shorter wait times. You used to be able to do as much in 11 low crowd hours as you could in 15 or 16 high crowd hours. But when they cut staffing/capacity so that wait times are similar to high crowd times and also have shorter park hours, I’m not able to do as many things and I kind of feel cheated.

 

[greg9x]

Aware this was happening but seems so wrong for the amount they charge to get in.... for a $100+ entry fee, I expect them to make a good effort to make my time worth it. If they are running full tilt and wait times are high due to crowd, that's one thing. But to keep my wait time higher just so they can save money is cheating the guest experience. If rides are walk ons, then yes, reduce capacity and staffing to maintain a 5-10 minute wait.

But as others said... this is one among many reasons will not be going back to Disney after next trip to get use out of annual pass.

 

[msk]

I’m right there with you guys. Sadly this will be our final trip for quite awhile. We are not renewing our annual passes. My DH, especially is done with WDW.

 

[SL6827]

I thought they didn't want people standing in line because they can't spend any money doing that. But this seems to be reported over and over.

 

[Shanti]

I've been around here a long time, and for years we equated long waits=high crowds. I think those days are gone, and a recent DISUnplugged podcast shed light as to why:

Basically, Disney is adjusting staffing and ride capacity based on crowds. So if you see a long wait for something, it doesn't mean the park is crowded. In fact, it could be the opposite, crowds could be relatively low, so Disney reduced staffing to save money which results in the rides are not operating at 100% capacity and therefore a longer wait.

It's like shopping at Walmart. They've got a ton of lanes, but during slow times only a few are open and the lines for those few are long. But then when it's busy they open more lanes and the lines are shorter.

Thoughts?

My recent experiences at WDW has not shown this theory to be true.

 

[whiporee]

I thought they didn't want people standing in line because they can't spend any money doing that. But this seems to be reported over and over.

it keeps getting repeated over and over because it fits some people's narrative that Disney is a money-grubbing, uncaring organization. And while it may be true, if anyone actually listened to both the interview and the podcast, you'd find out the data was actually much different.

TP did this investigation for self-serving reasons -- they were getting slammed for being so wrong so often this year. So they staked people out to investigate. And what they found was an decrease in overall capacity of about 5 percent during the week. They didn't find any such change on the weekends. They had anecdotal evidence that some rides had drastic reductions in the numbers of people getting off, but overall about a 5 percent decrease, and that was only Mon-Thurs. Now you can make the argument that five percent is too much, but it was still only five percent and only during times where they could project lesser crowds.

That led to supposition -- mostly by the DIS Podcast staff, I must add -- that WDW had been intentionally reducing capacity for nefarious reasons. But TP actually didn't show that nor did they show it over any length of time. And, while not disparaging them or their methods it's important to remember this entire exercise was a bit of self-preservation. Their subscriber base relies on them to be accurate; they needed an explanation why they weren't. They found one, but it's based on rather sketchy evidence.

I'm not saying they are wrong, but I do suggest that you investigate the entirety of what they say rather than basing your opinion of WDW on the supposition of people who really don't have a lot in way fo facts to back up what they are saying.

My opinion, for what it is worth, is that you simply can't look at wait times they way you used to. With so much emphasis on FP the standby lines have to get longe by definition -- there are only so many seats available. So I think it's only fair to look at wait times as an amalgamation of bot the standby and the FP experience -- say you do ten rides in a day and you had Fps for four of them. The FP wait was 10 minutes, the standby wait was an average of 40. So you waited a total 280 minutes total for the day or an average of 28 minutes a ride. Not ideal, but nothing we haven't been seeing since the place opened. Not that it takes the standby line any more tolerable, but just looking at wait times is working from an antiquated model. A large percentage of people riding any ride have Fast Passes for it -- and that includes the people posting here. So if you're going to make a judgement based on wait times, you should also factor in that a large number of your riding experiences won't be in standby at all.

And if you're going to make an decision about WDW based on such things you might want to consider all of the factors that go into it, not just the ones that make WDW look bad.

 

[Clare Voince]

it keeps getting repeated over and over because it fits some people's narrative that Disney is a money-grubbing, uncaring organization. And while it may be true, if anyone actually listened to both the interview and the podcast, you'd find out the data was actually much different.

TP did this investigation for self-serving reasons -- they were getting slammed for being so wrong so often this year. So they staked people out to investigate. And what they found was an decrease in overall capacity of about 5 percent during the week. They didn't find any such change on the weekends. They had anecdotal evidence that some rides had drastic reductions in the numbers of people getting off, but overall about a 5 percent decrease, and that was only Mon-Thurs. Now you can make the argument that five percent is too much, but it was still only five percent and only during times where they could project lesser crowds.

That led to supposition -- mostly by the DIS Podcast staff, I must add -- that WDW had been intentionally reducing capacity for nefarious reasons. But TP actually didn't show that nor did they show it over any length of time. And, while not disparaging them or their methods it's important to remember this entire exercise was a bit of self-preservation. Their subscriber base relies on them to be accurate; they needed an explanation why they weren't. They found one, but it's based on rather sketchy evidence.

I'm not saying they are wrong, but I do suggest that you investigate the entirety of what they say rather than basing your opinion of WDW on the supposition of people who really don't have a lot in way fo facts to back up what they are saying.

My opinion, for what it is worth, is that you simply can't look at wait times they way you used to. With so much emphasis on FP the standby lines have to get longe by definition -- there are only so many seats available. So I think it's only fair to look at wait times as an amalgamation of bot the standby and the FP experience -- say you do ten rides in a day and you had Fps for four of them. The FP wait was 10 minutes, the standby wait was an average of 40. So you waited a total 280 minutes total for the day or an average of 28 minutes a ride. Not ideal, but nothing we haven't been seeing since the place opened. Not that it takes the standby line any more tolerable, but just looking at wait times is working from an antiquated model. A large percentage of people riding any ride have Fast Passes for it -- and that includes the people posting here. So if you're going to make a judgement based on wait times, you should also factor in that a large number of your riding experiences won't be in standby at all.

And if you're going to make an decision about WDW based on such things you might want to consider all of the factors that go into it, not just the ones that make WDW look bad.

Well said, and very insightful.

 

[hiroMYhero]

Here are the other threads that ran when the Podcast aired over a month ago:

Len Testa Interview

Jan 2018 wait times longer than Summer 2017: Disney reduced ride capacity

 

[Future_WorldPhonencian]

I agree it is frustrating when Disney reduces staffing to cut costs resulting in longer waits during slower times of the year... but I think there is more to the story. I think people's vacationing habits are also changing. I am sure Disney has always adjusted staffing to meet lower or higher crowds, but I think more people are now traveling in what used to be "off season" rather than in summer. As a middle-school teacher, I see more and more parents pulling kids out of class for Disney Vacations attached to long weekends or during the school year. January this year took TP and Disney by surprise... and last July when we visited many of the parks were much emptier than in past years...We can only hope that WDW will continue to adjust staffing needs based on crowd levels.

 

[brockash]

it keeps getting repeated over and over because it fits some people's narrative that Disney is a money-grubbing, uncaring organization. And while it may be true, if anyone actually listened to both the interview and the podcast, you'd find out the data was actually much different.

TP did this investigation for self-serving reasons -- they were getting slammed for being so wrong so often this year. So they staked people out to investigate. And what they found was an decrease in overall capacity of about 5 percent during the week. They didn't find any such change on the weekends. They had anecdotal evidence that some rides had drastic reductions in the numbers of people getting off, but overall about a 5 percent decrease, and that was only Mon-Thurs. Now you can make the argument that five percent is too much, but it was still only five percent and only during times where they could project lesser crowds.

That led to supposition -- mostly by the DIS Podcast staff, I must add -- that WDW had been intentionally reducing capacity for nefarious reasons. But TP actually didn't show that nor did they show it over any length of time. And, while not disparaging them or their methods it's important to remember this entire exercise was a bit of self-preservation. Their subscriber base relies on them to be accurate; they needed an explanation why they weren't. They found one, but it's based on rather sketchy evidence.

I'm not saying they are wrong, but I do suggest that you investigate the entirety of what they say rather than basing your opinion of WDW on the supposition of people who really don't have a lot in way fo facts to back up what they are saying.

My opinion, for what it is worth, is that you simply can't look at wait times they way you used to. With so much emphasis on FP the standby lines have to get longe by definition -- there are only so many seats available. So I think it's only fair to look at wait times as an amalgamation of bot the standby and the FP experience -- say you do ten rides in a day and you had Fps for four of them. The FP wait was 10 minutes, the standby wait was an average of 40. So you waited a total 280 minutes total for the day or an average of 28 minutes a ride. Not ideal, but nothing we haven't been seeing since the place opened. Not that it takes the standby line any more tolerable, but just looking at wait times is working from an antiquated model. A large percentage of people riding any ride have Fast Passes for it -- and that includes the people posting here. So if you're going to make a judgement based on wait times, you should also factor in that a large number of your riding experiences won't be in standby at all.

And if you're going to make an decision about WDW based on such things you might want to consider all of the factors that go into it, not just the ones that make WDW look bad.

What I base my decision and thoughts on Disney on are our experiences, and we experienced this over and over again during the end of last August. We felt taken advantage of many many times during that trip due to Disney choosing to run things at less and less capacity. While I don't doubt TP had a self-serving purpose (almost all companies do); their findings of Disney running things at half capacity was our exact experience and generally new to us and we go the same time every year (for over a decade).

 

[whiporee]

What I base my decision and thoughts on Disney on are our experiences, and we experienced this over and over again during the end of last August. We felt taken advantage of many many times during that trip due to Disney choosing to run things at less and less capacity. While I don't doubt TP had a self-serving purpose (almost all companies do); their findings of Disney running things at half capacity was our exact experience and generally new to us and we go the same time every year (for over a decade).

But they didn't say that. They said 5 percent reduction in capacity during the week. They said some rides were at about 25 less capacity -- actually what they said was 25 percent less people getting off -- but we don't know what exactly they were comparing it to, and it was happening during the week where it's reasonable to think they'd have less staffing and less business. And since the overall drop in capacity during those times was 5 percent, that means some rides had more people coming off than they had tracked at whatever time they had tracked it. That's what their data showed. I'm not disparaging their numbers or their methods, but I am trying to give a fair and accurate representation of what it actually showed. Along those same lines, we've got no data or evidence that suggests this is a new practice; while anecdotes are not data, I think we've had plenty of former CMS simply say this has been the case forever.

I can't argue with your experience or your feelings on the subject, and if you feel taken advantage of by WDW that's your prerogative. What I am arguing against is the idea that a) it's proven that WDW does this on a large scale and b) it's the cause of the feeling of larger crowds. it might be, but stating that TP has proven it to be the case is inaccurate.

The other aspect of this is that FP takes people out of lines. SB wait times may be longer, but the actual physical lines are shorter. That's because of FP -- people don't have to commit to a line to get on a ride in most cases. So they are out walking or shopping or eating instead of standing in the SM queue, and that leads the park to feel more crowded than it comparably is to past times because more people are on the promenades doing things other than waiting in lines. FP makes the lines slower, but it also makes them shorter.

 

[Clare Voince]

One thing that people keep forgetting is the hurricane. It made many people postpone their trips several months. I wonder if TP factored that into their crowd levels.

 

[mom2rtk]

I agree it is frustrating when Disney reduces staffing to cut costs resulting in longer waits during slower times of the year... but I think there is more to the story. I think people's vacationing habits are also changing. I am sure Disney has always adjusted staffing to meet lower or higher crowds, but I think more people are now traveling in what used to be "off season" rather than in summer. As a middle-school teacher, I see more and more parents pulling kids out of class for Disney Vacations attached to long weekends or during the school year. January this year took TP and Disney by surprise... and last July when we visited many of the parks were much emptier than in past years...We can only hope that WDW will continue to adjust staffing needs based on crowd levels.

Higher crowds might catch visitors by surprise. But they don't really catch Disney by surprise. Magic Bands and FP scheduling were put in place to allow Disney to collect data. Lots of it. Between hotel bookings and MM+ data, Disney has a pretty good handle on what to expect.

 

[luvsJack]

Here is something I don't understand, so if someone could explain it to me please? Several people have reported being on Pirates, for example, and watching as they would let every other boat go unloaded. How is that helping Disney? I mean that doesn't help them to have less CM's standing there does it? And the ones that watch the ride as it goes, have to watch the ride regardless of how many boats are going. So I am really confused on how this helps with the number of employees. I can understand when its a ride with more than one track and they shut down one side. And maybe I am thinking of it wrong, but it just seems with Pirates or Peter Pan or ITASW type rides, letting every other car or boat go isn't doing anything but frustrating the people in line (and I am fairly sure that isn't the intent lol)