Would you join a lawsuit against DVC to stop/revert the 2020 reallocation?

[Chuck S]

Well, I'm not exactly sure I'd call Orlando Weekly "the media." Most of the publications under the Euclid Media Group are, well, not mainstream, to be kind. Not that they are awful publications, I occasionally pick up a San Antonio Current or Out In SA myself, but they are hardly mainstream by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[skier_pete]

I wanted to see how easy it would be to demonstrate that 2-bedroom demand is clearly higher than 1-bedroom. This was the FIRST thing on the availability tool I looked at. What does this ONE image tell you about demand and availability?? (Note - this is WL-BRV.) Sorry, when you spend a lot of times with these charts - you know this is the way it is. Saying "1-Bedrooms are more in demand than 2-bedrooms" is such a boldface lie.




And let's point out - for some of these dates - a 2bedroom is only NINE POINTS MORE than a 1-bedroom. Yet this is what the charts show.

Here's another one - Beach Club Villas. Not sure which one would be in higher demand??


What a load of BS.

 

[WebmasterDoc]

So you have hand-picked dates for two resorts in August and September for stays of 12 nights and 6 nights and that should be proof of anything? The dates for one are just within 7 months and the other is more than 7 months.

This doesn't seem to prove your premise.

Be sure to use to use this as an example of something when you contact DVCMC and for two resorts you have also hand-picked. What is this supposed to prove regarding reallocation for the last few years?

The data likely used for the 2020 reallocation came from 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016 2017, and maybe even 2018.

Anecdotal observations for two resorts in the latter half of 2019 proves nothing to sway a decision made since the last reallocation - if anything. Perhaps, these examples may serve to modify future reallocations.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

So you have hand-picked dates for two resorts in August and September for stays of 12 nights and 6 nights and that should be proof of anything? The dates for one are just within 7 months and the other is more than 7 months.

This doesn't seem to prove your premise.

Be sure to use to use this as an example of something when you contact DVCMC and for two resorts you have also hand-picked. What is this supposed to prove regarding reallocation for the last few years?

The data likely used for the 2020 reallocation came from 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016 2017, and maybe even 2018.

Anecdotal observations for two resorts in the latter half of 2019 proves nothing to sway a decision made since the last reallocation - if anything. Perhaps, these examples may serve to modify future reallocations.

Yes, it's a moment in time but what is being said is that it is not an abnormal observance to anyone who does look at availability.

 

[Johnny D]

They would lock down your account and escort you off the premises. You'd have to do it on social media or with the news media. You either knew or should have know there could be changes and likely would be changes.

Bad look for DISNEY! Pretty un-American to shut down a protest. I like many knew there would be changes. Everything is a matter of the degree. The examples they gave me twice were moving points in the same type of accommodation to different seasons. Not taking one-bedroom and studios and jacking up the points but lowering two bedrooms. Families of three and four don’t need two bedrooms. This is at the least misleading sales practices. Their sales pitch to me and many others was misleading and the contract seems to be ambiguous for the average purchaser. Everyone is not an attorney. They are the experts and took advantage of people just like the predatory lenders. Lastly, the whole marketing sales pitch had to do with a locking in your price of future vacations. Well if I bought enough points for one week in a studio and they raised the point total for studios, my price isn’t exactly locked in.

 

[WebmasterDoc]

Yes, it's a moment in time but what is being said is that it is not an abnormal observance to anyone who does look at availability.

What does future availability for 2019 have to do with a decision made using real data from the past several years which was used to develop the 2020 reallocation?

 

[DVC92]

So you have hand-picked dates for two resorts in August and September for stays of 12 nights and 6 nights and that should be proof of anything? The dates for one are just within 7 months and the other is more than 7 months.

This doesn't seem to prove your premise.

Be sure to use to use this as an example of something when you contact DVCMC and for two resorts you have also hand-picked. What is this supposed to prove regarding reallocation for the last few years?

The data likely used for the 2020 reallocation came from 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016 2017, and maybe even 2018.

Anecdotal observations for two resorts in the latter half of 2019 proves nothing to sway a decision made since the last reallocation - if anything. Perhaps, these examples may serve to modify future reallocations.

In my conversation with Management this afternoon, I pointed out 2019 ressies for BLT and VGF. Both clearly illustrate that there is as much or more availability for 1BRs than 2BRs 7 months or less out as well as from 7 months to 11 months.

 

[DVC92]

Well, I'm not exactly sure I'd call Orlando Weekly "the media." Most of the publications under the Euclid Media Group are, well, not mainstream, to be kind. Not that they are awful publications, I occasionally pick up a San Antonio Current or Out In SA myself, but they are hardly mainstream by any stretch of the imagination.

It's a start. Bad publicity has a way of expanding.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

What does future availability for 2019 have to do with a decision made using real data from the past several year which was used to develop the 2020 reallocation?

Because though it's a snap shot it's what has been visible for several years. It's why many of us are questioning the reallocations. It shows 2019 but is representative of what was seen in 2018. And 2017. And so on. But even so, one could say that perhaps they are jumping the gun if 2019 is not following this so called demand pattern that is requiring the point changes for 2020.

You feel that 1BR's have not been the most available, longest lasing room type?

 

[WebmasterDoc]

Because though it's a snap shot it's what has been visible for several years. It's why many of us are questioning the reallocations. It shows 2019 but is representative of what was seen in 2018. And 2017. And so on. But even so, one could say that perhaps they are jumping the gun if 2019 is not following this so called demand pattern that is requiring the point changes for 2020.

You feel that 1BR's have not been the most available, longest lasing room type?

Then why not use the anecdotal examples garnered over the past 7 years to support the premise/complaint? No one has provided examples from past years to support the complaint regarding demand that has led to the 2020 reallocation.

When Studios are removed from lock-off 2BR villas, the remaining accommodation is the 1BR villa. I have no data to rely on and will NOT accept the anecdotal information being thrown around here as proof of anything. The anecdotal references do not show how these reservations have been made - using banked points from a prior Use Year, using borrowed points from a future Use Year, using points returned to DVC from non-DVC reservations, which they need to reserve for cash reservations, using DVC-owned points (although I suspect that is a relatively small number since many DVC owned points need to be used for rehab, renovation, etc.), using DVC owned points from foreclosure/ROFR, using DVC points used for World Passport exchanges with RCI.

We do not have ANY of that information available to use to make any supposition about actual demand.

IMO, reallocation is a complex decision based on information not readily available based on information suggested by 12 and 6 night reservation requests made using the online booking system.

 

[Chuck S]

Bad look for DISNEY! Pretty un-American to shut down a protest. I like many knew there would be changes. Everything is a matter of the degree. The examples they gave me twice were moving points in the same type of accommodation to different seasons. Not taking one-bedroom and studios and jacking up the points but lowering two bedrooms. Families of three and four don’t need two bedrooms. This is at the least misleading sales practices. Their sales pitch to me and many others was misleading and the contract seems to be ambiguous for the average purchaser. Everyone is not an attorney. They are the experts and took advantage of people just like the predatory lenders. Lastly, the whole marketing sales pitch had to do with a locking in your price of future vacations. Well if I bought enough points for one week in a studio and they raised the point total for studios, my price isn’t exactly locked in.

They do it all the time, and in fact, most of the customers applaud it. Would you want protests and demonstrations going on while you're trying to enjoy the parks with your kids? Remember, someone was recently banned for life for political banners...and everyone here thought it was the right thing to do. Remember, Disney does not have to provide the venue for your protest.

 

[WebmasterDoc]

In my conversation with Management this afternoon, I pointed out 2019 ressies for BLT and VGF. Both clearly illustrate that there is as much or more availability for 1BRs than 2BRs 7 months or less out as well as from 7 months to 11 months.

What was their response to your example from 2019 reservations from two DVC resorts?

Again, "clearly illustrate" using incomplete data merely confuses the issue when trying to defend a position here. 2019 anecdotal information was NOT use to formulate the recently announced 2020 reallocation. That information, no matter how accurate, was not available when the 2020 reallocation was determined.

It could be used for a future reallocation if it was in fact accurate data.

 

[freediverdude]

I think this is something that we will have to start warning new purchasers about, maybe put it somewhere in the purchasing section. We need to be telling purchasers that if they are buying to have a certain number of days every year in a certain type of unit, that Disney can and will change the required points per night over all seasons for that unit, changing their reserving power of their points for that type. And that possibly there may not be any real limit on this over a number of years time.

This can and should be a deal breaker for a good number of buyers, and Disney of course is not going to readily disclose this.

 

[Johnny D]

They do it all the time, and in fact, most of the customers applaud it. Would you want protests and demonstrations going on while you're trying to enjoy the parks with your kids? Remember, someone was recently banned for life for political banners...and everyone here thought it was the right thing to do. Remember, Disney does not have to provide the venue for your protest.

Not talking about protest at the parks or interrupting anyones vacation. I’m talking about at the sales center. Let’s let prospective buyers of Dvc know that they are not being exactly honest in their sales practices and sell you a product Kind of with a slight of hand. Everyone has a right to protest and have their voice heard. It’s the American way. Disney is a public company just like any other public company. People protest companies and their actions all the time. What makes Disney so untouchable?

 

[Johnny D]

I think this is something that we will have to start warning new purchasers about, maybe put it somewhere in the purchasing section. We need to be telling purchasers that if they are buying to have a certain number of days every year in a certain type of unit, that Disney can and will change the required points per night over all seasons for that unit, changing their reserving power of their points for that type. And that possibly there may not be any real limit on this over a number of years time.

This can and should be a deal breaker for a good number of buyers, and Disney of course is not going to readily disclose this.

100% agree!!

 

[Bing Showei]

IMO, reallocation is a complex decision based on information not readily available based on information suggested by 12 and 6 night reservation requests made using the online booking system.

You dismiss any observations made and disparage it as “anecdotal” given the lack of hard data. You then presuppose that DVCMC must clearly have evidence and data that supports these changes; data that they refuse to share to support a reallocation that they chose not to release prior to a condo meeting just two weeks earlier. In so doing, you’re pitting what members see today and have observed for years against the very data inside a DVCMC imposed firewall that you’ve already accepted to have been acted on in good faith. Essentially, DVCMC is beyond reproach, absent evidence that proves otherwise, but the only evidence you will accept would be hard data which, again, only DVCMC has. That’s an impossible position to reason with.

The booking system is a reflection of exactly what the membership is dealing with when attempting to book a room. What bearing is there as to where the points come from to make a booking, whether people have borrowed, banked, or traded in points to get a room? When I go to book and I use the online booking tool and can’t get the room I want, it’s a reflection of present demand.

Why would it matter how a 1BR came to be, if a lockoff studio booking creates a surplus of 1BRs in excess of present demand and eliminates a 2BR from inventory? You’re still dealing with a surplus of 1BRs and a dearth of 2BRs. How does raising 1BRs and lowering 2BRs possibly make sense in that scenario?

It strikes me that absent ANY evidence or guidance from DVCMC, you will sooner accept at face value, and in fact provide possible rationale for their intentions, than consider any observations that have been historically and presently made by members. Any example pulled now, you’ll discount as non-applicable because DVCMC was looking back at a body of evidence as far back as 2013 up until 2018. If the justification can’t be made in the face of 2019 data, how is it supposed to be a logical reallocation that addresses present needs?

How you discount the information we can see presently and have been observed by members for years in favor of the word of a corporate behemoth who has a conflict of interest, as it pertains to profiting off these changes, is a bit puzzling.

 

[WebmasterDoc]

You dismiss any observations made and disparage it as “anecdotal” given the lack of hard data. You then presuppose that DVCMC must clearly have evidence and data that supports these changes; data that they refuse to share to support a reallocation that they chose not to release prior to a condo meeting just two weeks earlier. In so doing, you’re pitting what members see today and have observed for years against the very data inside a DVCMC imposed firewall that you’ve already accepted to have been acted on in good faith. Essentially, DVCMC is beyond reproach, absent evidence that proves otherwise, but the only evidence you will accept would be hard data which, again, only DVCMC has. That’s an impossible position to reason with.

The booking system is a reflection of exactly what the membership is dealing with when attempting to book a room. What bearing is there as to where the points come from to make a booking, whether people have borrowed, banked, or traded in points to get a room? When I go to book and I use the online booking tool and can’t get the room I want, it’s a reflection of present demand.

Why would it matter how a 1BR came to be, if a lockoff studio booking creates a surplus of 1BRs in excess of present demand and eliminates a 2BR from inventory? You’re still dealing with a surplus of 1BRs and a dearth of 2BRs. How does raising 1BRs and lowering 2BRs possibly make sense in that scenario?

It strikes me that absent ANY evidence or guidance from DVCMC, you will sooner accept at face value, and in fact provide possible rationale for their intentions, than consider any observations that have been historically and presently made by members. Any example pulled now, you’ll discount as non-applicable because DVCMC was looking back at a body of evidence as far back as 2013 up until 2018. If the justification can’t be made in the face of 2019 data, how is it supposed to be a logical reallocation that addresses present needs?

How you discount the information we can see presently and have been observed by members for years in favor of the word of a corporate behemoth who has a conflict of interest, as it pertains to profiting off these changes, is a bit puzzling.

For years, DVC Members could only make reservations by telephone calls to MS. Over the past few years, we have gained the ability to make reservations online without interaction with DVC representatives. The information made available by DVC provides the ability to review real-time availability for availability of future dates. This information is now being used to suggest demand patterns for all DVC resorts without full knowledge of all details, yet it is offered here as some sort of proof that DVCMC is operating beyond their scope.

I can "discount the information we see presently" because it is incomplete data and mostly irrelevant in terms of condemning DVCMC for their responsibility regarding periodically reallocating DVC Resort point charts based on data collected over a period of years.

Why are you now willing to accept the same information you were challenging less than 7 hours ago in this same thread?

Has DVCMC been in contact with you since then with new information?

 

[Madame]

Well if DVCMC would be more forthcoming & show members the data, we could all rest easy... but they won’t... Why act like you’ve something to hide, unless you’ve something to hide? It’s not as if booking patterns are going to reveal DVC secrets to the competition (they really have none since they own all the real estate)

 

[skier_pete]

So you have hand-picked dates for two resorts in August and September for stays of 12 nights and 6 nights and that should be proof of anything? The dates for one are just within 7 months and the other is more than 7 months.

This doesn't seem to prove your premise.

Be sure to use to use this as an example of something when you contact DVCMC and for two resorts you have also hand-picked. What is this supposed to prove regarding reallocation for the last few years?

The data likely used for the 2020 reallocation came from 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016 2017, and maybe even 2018.

Anecdotal observations for two resorts in the latter half of 2019 proves nothing to sway a decision made since the last reallocation - if anything. Perhaps, these examples may serve to modify future reallocations.

The dates I picked are irrelevant, and not even on the months I showed. I picked a 3 month time period with mostly less than 7 months to go. 1 beds and much more available across the entire 3 months. 2 beds are much less available. Yet Disney is claiming 1-beds are more in demand.

 

[skier_pete]

IMO, reallocation is a complex decision based on information not readily available based on information suggested by 12 and 6 night reservation requests made using the online booking system.

As to my post above, it's a 3-month snapshot not a six day snapshot.

But it's also surveying the booking tool for the past 5 years. Unfortunately, I didn't do a detailed track on the 2015 point charts for 2-bedrooms, so it's hard to provide definitive examples over the last several years, but the point is consistently we see 1-bedrooms are available later - as in closer to the date of booking - than 2 bedrooms are. If demand for 1-beds are higher than 2-beds, why are they so much easier to get?