The WDW 5th Park Debate

[DisRich]

Okay - I was one of the naive people that held out hope WDW was going to announce a blue skies 5th gate at WDW announcement for D23 this year. I was leaning on all of the legal approvals, need to have a big D23 to make up for past disappointments and it just kind of felt like it was time - at least for the announcement of one. Now the closer we get to D23 and the more we hear about plans I do not think that is something we will get this year but maybe 2026 or 2028.

I wanted to drop a thread because I have been seeing mixed conversation amongst guests about wanting a 5th gate which surprises me. Without getting too much into the WDW business side of it (because there are a lot of draw backs and issues there), why are people against it?

No, I don't think Disney needs it to compete with Universal and I understand the idea of wanting to improve current lands (like AK and HS that have like nothing) first but if you ever wanted to see a new park I feel like you'd want the announcement of one sooner rather than later because with the way Disney does any type of construction, a full park probably would take well over a decade. If you ever wanted to see one, it would have to be in the next few years, no? And just because a park is announced wouldn't mean other projects don't happen. With how slow they do everything you could announce whatever you want and none of it will come to the parks for years anyway. Look at Epcot, 4-5 years for what we have now. I also know the crowd control is an interesting topic too because I think bringing a 5th park would help but I know the argument is that a new park would drive admissions up a lot and at least in the beginning might be worse but isn't something new and grand coming our way in our life times worth it?

If they don't ever do it or we don't get one for multiple decades, are we really okay with that? If so - I'd like to hear the rational for only new lands added to the park, etc. Or some of the cool ideas for new parks or lands you could see coming from information that is out there as we approach D23.

 

[Hubalorian]

I am curious to see how epic impacts the other parks (both Disney and Universal). I would not want Disney to invest heavily into a 5th park if that meant all other parks remain stagnant. I would rather upgrade and expand existing land. Expand out TS land, Galaxy Edge, add Villains land beyond big thunder, and expand Pandora.

I would also worry about staffing 5 full theme parks.

 

[Lesverts]

Market Street expansion and theater
Beyond Big Thunder
Dinoland redevelopment
DHS Phase 3
Spaceship Earth redevelopment
Imagination Pavillon redo
Seas Pavilion update
Just do something with the wonders of life pavillon
Odyssey pavilion permanent use tenant
Put something into the decades long unused Germany attraction pavilion
Japan attraction
Mary Poppins attraction
Redevelopment of the two entry buildings in Tomorrowland
The lakeside lodge resort
New countries in world showcase

Why a fifth park when they have cancelled half the things they’ve announced over the last 2 decades.

 

[New Mouse]

They should work on completing a third park first.

 

[DisRich]

Well Disney has also gotten into the habit of just spewing ideas without following through timely, if at all. I mean at the current rate Universal should start to take attention away from a park that lacks the needed updates and expansions that should be happening regardless but, hey if we are only going to get one decent project every 5-10 years - I'd like to at least have the idea of another park out there for somewhere in the next 2 decades. It's bad enough the vibe in recent years has leaned more into revenue than customer satisfaction imo because they know they will always get business but being okay with just false promises that we hope they eventually address isn't enough I feel like. The roadmap should include everything and at the end of a long tunnel that addresses, beyond big thunder, tropical America's, AK and HS rides, etc there should be a like end game goal. At least it gets us happy if they timeline plans that they can actually try to follow through with. You know that thing Marvel did for like 5 years and then just stopped because they over promised - er bad example lol

 

[DisRich]

But yea if it's one or the other def want more in the current parks - just saying in a perfect world where you can get everything on a 10-20 year roadmap, would people still not want it? If the plan is to put $17B into WDW and Star Wars land cost $1B, there should financially be enough to satisfy most of the big needs and still get into an additional park. They wouldn’t add it into the agreement with the state if it wasn’t a thought.

I mean this might also just be my brain as a dvc owner because I'd like more space and things to do before I'm a senior citizen or not even alive to see it. I feel like it's becoming more like wanting my team to win a Super Bowl in my lifetime, a pipe dream, trying to imagine upgraded parks or new park with Disney in my life. The thought of 20-30 years from now Disney only having done some lands and revamps tho while Universal starts making big moves makes me nostalgically sad to be such a big Disney person.

Was just curious to get others opinions

 

[Lesverts]

I mean they can’t even keep two water parks open at once. I do not do water parks but I think closing down one of them and redeveloping it into something comparable to volcano bay should be another priority over a 5th park.

 

[wabbott]

A fifth gate should have been opened five (5) years ago.

I need to add that the new gate should be a Disney Sea or similar.

Instead, the dirt-for-brains bunch that runs the company have siphoned off billions of dollars from parks and wasted it on movies that no one watches, and tv shows that never air.

Now we are faced with the impending opening of a new Universal gate that will further pinch WDW revenue.

 

[whiteness]

I would prefer having more to do in the existing parks. Disneyland still feels like it has more to see and do than any Orlando park, including Magic Kingdom. And California Adventure and Downtown Disney are both just a short walk away.

Perhaps Beyond Big Thunder will make Magic Kingdom "better" than Disneyland (or, at least as good.)

 

[ghtx]

They should work on completing a third park first.

Savage

 

[OlliePop27]

I would prefer having more to do in the existing parks. Disneyland still feels like it has more to see and do than any Orlando park, including Magic Kingdom. And California Adventure and Downtown Disney are both just a short walk away.

Perhaps Beyond Big Thunder will make Magic Kingdom "better" than Disneyland (or, at least as good.)

I was going to chime in with the exact same thing. WDW needs to finish their existing parks before adding another. There is not nearly enough to do at HS and AK. Adding more capacity will really help to improve the guest experience in these parks and make LLMP function better.

When you go to Disneyland, the number of attractions in each park really stands out compared to WDW. This is also why LLMP/Genie+ works so much better at DL. Even DCA, with less rides than DL, still has more things to do than HS and AK.

The perfect example is Mickie & Minnie's Runaway Railway. HS removed Great Movie Ride, whereas DL ADDED the ride without removing anything. Added capacity = more things to do for more people in each park and lower waits on existing experiences.

 

[jimthedj]

It's all about economics, and a 5th gate takes a lot of infrastructure such as employee parking, transportation to the gate, new guest parking, roads, food distribution, staff, etc. It doesn't make sense considering how much room they have everywhere to expand. Plus, it's not about having another gate, it's about guests staying an extra day. Expanding with what you have does that without spending on the infrastructure of a 5th gate.

When they expanded Fantasy Land, 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea was an outdated ride that few people went on. It took up a tremendous amount of space and had a fairly high maintenance cost for the number of people who went on it. Look at that comparison right now, seven dwarfs mine train, Beauty and the Beast dining and that entire area's attractions, Journey of the Little Mermaid, an expanded Dumbo attraction, and so much more. All of this was able to be done by demolishing one underutilized attraction.

Beyond Big Thunder- people have not interpreted that correctly. Everyone thinks the word "beyond" is being used as a location, but it's not. It's a concept. It's the next step. What is next?

The Rivers of America Riverboat and Tom Sawyer's Island are by far the most un-utilized locations in the park. Both are high maintenance and low volume and take double the amount of space 20K did. Look at it from any satellite view or map program. It takes up almost 25% of the entire park. Think about it yourself. Even as a Disney fan who follows a blog like this, when was the last time you went on either one of these?

Plus, if that wasn't enough of an argument, while Splash Mountain may have seemed culturally inappropriate because it was a more popular attraction, Tom Sawyer's Island and Rivers of America, in general, are far more.

The big Disney announcement is that Rivers of America and Tom Sawyer Island are going to be bulldozed, to be replaced by at least two lands, and maybe more.

Here is what it absolutely won't be... Encanto - that's already going in Animal Kingdom. Villans - villains already included in their appropriate actions... It Probably won't be a Frozen Land - we have that in Norway; Zootopia - that would have to be put Animal Kingdom and there is already a new Zootopia show going in there (and to be honest, they need as much as they can get there, most only consider it at 1/2 day park even though it is by far the largest part) Neverland - we already have Peter Pan's flight (although hey could close it and open one like in Disney Seas)... so who really knows what it will be. Tangled, like in Disney Seas and Coco, is the most likely.

But that is where the expansion is going. Not a 5th park.

 

[wabbott]

It's all about economics, and a 5th gate takes a lot of infrastructure such as employee parking, transportation to the gate, new guest parking, roads, food distribution, staff, etc. It doesn't make sense considering how much room they have everywhere to expand. Plus, it's not about having another gate, it's about guests staying an extra day. Expanding with what you have does that without spending on the infrastructure of a 5th gate.

When they expanded Fantasy Land, 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea was an outdated ride that few people went on. It took up a tremendous amount of space and had a fairly high maintenance cost for the number of people who went on it. Look at that comparison right now, seven dwarfs mine train, Beauty and the Beast dining and that entire area's attractions, Journey of the Little Mermaid, an expanded Dumbo attraction, and so much more. All of this was able to be done by demolishing one underutilized attraction.

Beyond Big Thunder- people have not interpreted that correctly. Everyone thinks the word "beyond" is being used as a location, but it's not. It's a concept. It's the next step. What is next?

The Rivers of America Riverboat and Tom Sawyer's Island are by far the most un-utilized locations in the park. Both are high maintenance and low volume and take double the amount of space 20K did. Look at it from any satellite view or map program. It takes up almost 25% of the entire park. Think about it yourself. Even as a Disney fan who follows a blog like this, when was the last time you went on either one of these?

Plus, if that wasn't enough of an argument, while Splash Mountain may have seemed culturally inappropriate because it was a more popular attraction, Tom Sawyer's Island and Rivers of America, in general, are far more.

The big Disney announcement is that Rivers of America and Tom Sawyer Island are going to be bulldozed, to be replaced by at least two lands, and maybe more.

Here is what it absolutely won't be... Encanto - that's already going in Animal Kingdom. Villans - villains already included in their appropriate actions... It Probably won't be a Frozen Land - we have that in Norway; Zootopia - that would have to be put Animal Kingdom and there is already a new Zootopia show going in there (and to be honest, they need as much as they can get there, most only consider it at 1/2 day park even though it is by far the largest part) Neverland - we already have Peter Pan's flight (although hey could close it and open one like in Disney Seas)... so who really knows what it will be. Tangled, like in Disney Seas and Coco, is the most likely.

But that is where the expansion is going. Not a 5th park.

Sounds like a plan. When do we start?

Oh, wait... Disney has to first spend untold billions of dollars and millions of management man-hours trying to keep Hollywood and ESPN propped up. And meanwhile stealing the money and time from the parks to do it with.

So who gets the blame for this colossal strategic mistake? Not Chapek - he walked off with a $100 million golden parachute. Not Iger, who floats around Hollywood knocking back $25 million/year or better.

I'll tell you who pays - the stockholders who've had to endure sub-standard management performance for over five (5) years. And the guests of the parks and cruises pay.

Rant off.

 

[ucf_knight]

They should work on completing a third park first.

Exactly this. There's 9 rides at HS, 9 rides at EPCOT and 8 rides at AK. At MK there are 24 rides (all of these numbers are based on my own definition of a ride). Disney fans should not want a 5th gate until the current parks have more to do. HS, EPCOT and AK are all half day to barely a full day park. Compare that to the two parks on the west coast and its pretty comical how little there is to do beyond MK at WDW.

 

[Bibbidi_Boo]

I would prefer having more to do in the existing parks. Disneyland still feels like it has more to see and do than any Orlando park, including Magic Kingdom. And California Adventure and Downtown Disney are both just a short walk away.

Perhaps Beyond Big Thunder will make Magic Kingdom "better" than Disneyland (or, at least as good.)

I was just going to say that. MK is the only park at WDW that really has a decent amount of rides..the rest really need more. WDW has more overall between all 4 parks, but we should have way more than DL with having 4 parks not just barely more.

 

[BrianL]

I don't think it's quite time for a 5th gate, but I do think they need to create a new ancilliary offering like the water parks/mini golf - something to keep people in that bubble for some extra fun. They have that big NBA building, so maybe something there. Personally, I wouldn't mind a DisneyQuest 2.0 kind of thing or something like The Void, but something any kind of compelling extra would be good.

 

[wabbott]

I don't think it's quite time for a 5th gate, but I do think they need to create a new ancilliary offering like the water parks/mini golf - something to keep people in that bubble for some extra fun. They have that big NBA building, so maybe something there. Personally, I wouldn't mind a DisneyQuest 2.0 kind of thing or something like The Void, but something any kind of compelling extra would be good.

There was a thread here a while back about a Switzerland themed attraction in EPCOT. IMO, a Matterhorn would work well there. Also, doing a faux Rhine River Cruise in Germany could work.

 

[OlliePop27]

Exactly this. There's 9 rides at HS, 9 rides at EPCOT and 8 rides at AK. At MK there are 24 rides (all of these numbers are based on my own definition of a ride). Disney fans should not want a 5th gate until the current parks have more to do. HS, EPCOT and AK are all half day to barely a full day park. Compare that to the two parks on the west coast and its pretty comical how little there is to do beyond MK at WDW.

34 rides at Disneyland Park
18 rides at California Adventure

Some people might count differently, as I tried to only count actual rides, but it shows the general point. Far more to do at the CA parks except Magic Kingdom. This doesn't include other things to do like Main Street Vehicles/Treehouse, shows like Turtle Talk/Phillarmagic, etc.

 

[New Mouse]

Exactly this. There's 9 rides at HS, 9 rides at EPCOT and 8 rides at AK. At MK there are 24 rides (all of these numbers are based on my own definition of a ride). Disney fans should not want a 5th gate until the current parks have more to do. HS, EPCOT and AK are all half day to barely a full day park. Compare that to the two parks on the west coast and its pretty comical how little there is to do beyond MK at WDW.

All 9 or 8 of those aren't even desirable to the entire family....or desirable at all.

 

[DisRich]

I don't think there is anyone that would disagree that the current parks need more attractions. That goes without saying. I guess my point was more that if they are investing the $17B, they have the financing and the means to do projects at all of these parks. Plus doing the big projects like beyond big thunder, tropical americas and new attractions across all the parks is being done regardless and will suck up 5-10 years of time. If they even announced a new park that would be anticipation to compete with Universal, you wouldn't even break ground for 10 years with the rate they move on everything. We're going to get what they planned to give us either way, so why not dream high. They could not do a fifth park and we still might only get 2 lands and maybe 2-3 rides in the next 10 years anyway. That's why the 5th park is a dream, because you get tons of attractions at once (or at least a few but resturants and other visuals and room for guests to spread out. Plus new is always nice), when with these "expansions" and "refurbishments" you just stay chasing the carrot for as long as they want. Disney is well aware we will all keep going, so why not pinch out a land every decade and a revamped ride ever 2-4 years. Imo if you don't want an additional park announced sooner than later than it won't happen in our life's times anyway and you'll still get the same amount of additions you would've without it. Tracking the last decade of progress we'd be lucky to get 2 new lands and a few rides before the end of the current contract they have with the state for the next 15 years anyway. I just don't think the idea of an announcement changes anything with what they know they plan to do - just generates excitment.

It just seems like this debate always comes down to one or the other, which I don't think makes much sense. Why would a multi-billion dollar company that wants to do these things in a 15 year time frame not get them done when they want. I feel like not wanting to get one doesn't give you focus elsewhere, these dudes know exactly what they are doing. They know what's in the parks and what could be added. Regardless of the investment they will continue the pace they are going to stretch that hope as thin as possible for additions, at least a new gate is a bigger swing.

Like for example if Disneys plan for the next decade was:
Project X
Project Y
Project Z

Adding an additional project to that is just more - not a replacement of what you would get regardless if the new project was added or not.