The Running Thread--2024

Definitely didn't start out too aggressive at the mile one split. Where was your headspace at when you hit the 8:59 and then 9:28?



So what was the training like in the last four weeks (post 4/6) compared to the four weeks prior to the HM? You say you went into base building, so did you pull back on volume and intensity comparably? Admittedly, that's the right choice coming off the 16 week training block, but won't put you in a race ready state a month later.



Something seems off with the volumes. You're saying 38 miles in 9:36 hrs? That's a 15:09 min/mile average. Am I misunderstanding?



All seem like reasonable speed workouts for the intended goal. Maybe a few longer reps needed at 10k effort, but it's doable. But when did these types of efforts occur recently? Before or after the April 6th HM training plan ended?

ETA- Also what was the date of the 26:13 5K?
My headspace was not great (as usual, I get panicky uncomfortable and you can see it the declining pace, ugh).

Yes, I did exactly that @DopeyBadger for the last 4 weeks--pulled back on volume and intensity after my half marathon so I really had no business to race a 10k this past Saturday, as I haven't been training for it. I know this... 😏

Hmm, no you aren't misunderstanding but the Feb miles were on snowy and icy roads so much much slower (that's the only thing I can think of--so probably a lot of careful walking too--I pulling this data from garmin). I don't think I have messed this up...lol. I am in Michigan and try to run outside year round.

I think you are 100% on to something--I think I need a few longer reps at 10k effort. I did some of these workouts as part of my HM training block that ended on April 6th. I just started (last week) trying to bring these speed workouts into my routine but again, just started....this might be the missing piece in all of this.
 
Something seems off with the volumes. You're saying 38 miles in 9:36 hrs? That's a 15:09 min/mile average. Am I misunderstanding?
I will double check my data--hopefully I unchecked the box that includes my daily 2.25 mile evening walk (lol). Honestly, leave it to me to do all this wrong....I am such a tech dinosaur. 🤣
 
ETA- Also what was the date of the 26:13 5K?
The 26:13 5k was June 27, 2023. I also ran a track meet in January 2024 in 27:48.

Ironically enough, the April 6, 2024 HM I just ran shows my 5K at 26:39, my 10k at 54:00, my 10 miler at 1:29:37 but I totally crashed towards the end (hence the 2:02 finish).

I really appreciate all your feedback @DopeyBadger. I will keep trying!
 
Based on the information provided, I'd rank the possible explanations as such:

Yes, I did exactly that @DopeyBadger for the last 4 weeks--pulled back on volume and intensity after my half marathon so I really had no business to race a 10k this past Saturday, as I haven't been training for it. I know this... 😏

Given you've spent the last 4 weeks in recovery/base building mode, you're likely not in race ready mode. Despite it being a shorter distance than the HM, you were still aiming for a near peak fitness performance. With the drop in volume and intensity, your overall training load likely dropped into the neutral/recovery zone and thus your body will respond differently to the training and race readiness. So my first gut instinct would be to say you wouldn't necessarily need to change anything about the training you did pre-April 6th, and rather it's just a timing thing in relation to the training itself.

According to Jack Daniels, after 5 days of a break from training, you lose about 0.03% if you do no leg aerobic work and 0.015% if you do leg aerobic work per day. This information is more useful for complete breaks from training, but kind of gives you an idea of the rate of decay once training stops. At 28 days post training, you're looking at a 3.5-7% drop in VDOT. That's like a 26:13/54:29 (VDOT 36.2) becoming a 27:03-27:50 5k or 56:13-57:51 10k (VDOT 33.7-34.9). That 57:02 you did run is smack dab in the middle of the predicted fitness decay from a lack of running. The good news is it's easier to rebuild your fitness level in the next training plan than it is to outgain into new areas of fitness performance.

If I'm right, then about 4-5 weeks of a new training block, you should be coming into form around the same 54-55 min 10k fitness level. Hopefully you've still got some time before your POT submission date, because between the Michigan weather and the need for 4-5 more weeks, it may be possible to give this another attempt.

My headspace was not great (as usual, I get panicky uncomfortable and you can see it the declining pace, ugh).

Keep working on this. Find ways to maintain a positive mindset in the race as best you can. I'm a big subscriber to the motivational intensity theory and psychobiological model of endurance proposed by Samuele Marcora (link). In short, the model states there are five factors that primarily determine regulation of pacing.

1) Perception of effort
2) Potential motivation
3) Knowledge of distance/time to cover
4) Knowledge of distance/time remaining
5) Previous experience/memory of perception of effort during exercise of varying intensity and duration

The potential motivation is defined, as the maximum effort a person is willing to exert to meet a certain task. The motivational intensity is the amount of effort that people actually expend to meet that task. The combination of these two ideas into the Motivational Intensity Theory creates the framework for why an individual will continue in a task: either the level of potential motivation hasn’t been reached or the task is still viewed as possible. A person will disengage from the task when either the perception of effort outweighs the potential motivation or the person believes they are physically unable to maintain the task (believed to maxed effort). Your mental headspace can make you perceive a task to be harder than it physically is based on your motivation in the moment.

I think you are 100% on to something--I think I need a few longer reps at 10k effort. I did some of these workouts as part of my HM training block that ended on April 6th. I just started (last week) trying to bring these speed workouts into my routine but again, just started....this might be the missing piece in all of this.

I think one or two workouts would have been nice, but I think it had more to do with the top 2 than this. Work on the two above, and if you still don't quite reach your goals, then consider some subtle tweaks to the content of the training plan. But overall, I'd put you at close to obtaining the goal and it was likely just the circumstances of the timing of the race relative to the end of the last training plan.
 
But overall, I'd put you at close to obtaining the goal and it was likely just the circumstances of the timing of the race relative to the end of the last training plan.
You are a GEM @DopeyBadger 💎 and you have no idea how much I appreciate this. You have given me a lot to read and think about, which I will do. I will keep at it and enjoy the journey. 🤞:-)
 
could you help me figure out what days I should be doing my strength training??
Honestly, I would say: the days that you'll actually do it. I find that if I start thinking "oh, I shouldn't do it today because it's speedwork, and then tomorrow I have an early morning meeting (I do strength training in the morning), and then I need a recovery day the day after...etc." then it doesn't get done. Start doing some strength training and sweat the details of the timing once you get committed to it and it becomes a normal thing for you to do.

If you get some extreme soreness or there's a really killer running workout, then sure, adjust, but for the day-to-day...just do it when you can.
 
I’m probably not the best person to ask when it comes to scheduling strength with my runs……

I strength train 5 days a week. I split legs into two days - quad focused and hamstring/glute focused. One day for chest/triceps, one day for back/biceps and one day for shoulders/abs.

I’m limited on motions I can do for back & chest and a few ab exercises so this week back at the gym will be interesting.
 
Tangentially related to ST scheduling, and also an update from me, to be filed under Know and Respect Thy Limitations, I guess…

I’ve been battling weird chronic soft tissue pain in and around joints for years now, and have seen a bunch of different specialists who’ve provided no real answers. I’ve been told “stop doing yoga” by one doctor, “absolutely keep doing yoga” by another, prescribed PT that made the pain exponentially worse, and so on. The only constants were agreement among all that I have hypermobile joints and perimenopause is more than likely part of the picture. But no real diagnoses, and no remedies offered.

Well, it turns out “hypermobile” isn’t just an observation: it’s a DIAGNOSIS. Literally nobody told me that: I found it while looking through my clinical notes, mentioned it to a friend who has Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome, and she hooked me up with a doctor who specializes in EDS and Hypermobility Spectrum Disorder. I fit all criteria for HSD. And that diagnosis finally got me to the appropriate information for managing it.

HSD may or may not fall under the autoimmune umbrella - it needs more study, but is so often seen in people who have other autoimmune diseases, it seems very likely. It can be very affected by shifts in hormones - so yes, perimenopause can be a big player in how HSD impacts someone on any given day. And basically, the problem with HSD in athletes is that the more connective tissue (tendons, ligaments) are stretched, the more hypermobile they become, and then you have joints out of alignment, pulling on muscle tissue and/or creating friction - and that hurts. It turns out, joints (like knees, shoulders, hips, spine, wrists, ankles…) partially dislocating and snapping back into socket on the regular isn’t normal - I never knew that, so I’ve never thought to mention it. It’s been my normal since childhood.

The key seems to be keeping muscle tissue strong and supple, while avoiding overstretching connective tissue. Which is basically what I’d figured out without knowing the why of it on my own. Yoga is good and fine… so long as I’m not over-stretching connective tissue. Running is… well, not great TBH. But mixing it up with walk intervals and doing less of it is okay. ST is the toughest element to figure out, but the key seems to be muscle isolation - which is the opposite direction of a lot of modern ST exercises that are mean to work multiple muscle groups at once. All that does is place too much pressure on my hypermobile joints, which buckle and BAM - a few reps of weights and I can’t use a shoulder for a couple weeks.

Anyway, sorry for the wall of text, but you’ve all been so kind as I’ve struggled over the past couple years, and I wanted to share. The answers I have aren’t ideal, but they could be worse, and at least I know now that it’s not my imagination, and my inability to follow best practices for the average person without extreme pain isn’t some moral failing, but a legitimate medical issue. I’ve changed things up a bit and have some hard limits in place to reduce overextending connective tissue - think side-lying leg lifts, for instance: I have an upper and lower limit of range that I’m flexible enough to go past, but no longer do - that keeps my hip from sublaxing AND forces muscle tissue to handle the entire load itself. Body weight only for now. And paying close attention when walking and running to avoid hips, knees, and ankles from sublaxing. It’s been a few weeks of that and I’m happy to report less overall chronic pain!
 
Tangentially related to ST scheduling, and also an update from me, to be filed under Know and Respect Thy Limitations, I guess…

I’ve been battling weird chronic soft tissue pain in and around joints for years now, and have seen a bunch of different specialists who’ve provided no real answers. I’ve been told “stop doing yoga” by one doctor, “absolutely keep doing yoga” by another, prescribed PT that made the pain exponentially worse, and so on. The only constants were agreement among all that I have hypermobile joints and perimenopause is more than likely part of the picture. But no real diagnoses, and no remedies offered.

Well, it turns out “hypermobile” isn’t just an observation: it’s a DIAGNOSIS. Literally nobody told me that: I found it while looking through my clinical notes, mentioned it to a friend who has Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome, and she hooked me up with a doctor who specializes in EDS and Hypermobility Spectrum Disorder. I fit all criteria for HSD. And that diagnosis finally got me to the appropriate information for managing it.

HSD may or may not fall under the autoimmune umbrella - it needs more study, but is so often seen in people who have other autoimmune diseases, it seems very likely. It can be very affected by shifts in hormones - so yes, perimenopause can be a big player in how HSD impacts someone on any given day. And basically, the problem with HSD in athletes is that the more connective tissue (tendons, ligaments) are stretched, the more hypermobile they become, and then you have joints out of alignment, pulling on muscle tissue and/or creating friction - and that hurts. It turns out, joints (like knees, shoulders, hips, spine, wrists, ankles…) partially dislocating and snapping back into socket on the regular isn’t normal - I never knew that, so I’ve never thought to mention it. It’s been my normal since childhood.

The key seems to be keeping muscle tissue strong and supple, while avoiding overstretching connective tissue. Which is basically what I’d figured out without knowing the why of it on my own. Yoga is good and fine… so long as I’m not over-stretching connective tissue. Running is… well, not great TBH. But mixing it up with walk intervals and doing less of it is okay. ST is the toughest element to figure out, but the key seems to be muscle isolation - which is the opposite direction of a lot of modern ST exercises that are mean to work multiple muscle groups at once. All that does is place too much pressure on my hypermobile joints, which buckle and BAM - a few reps of weights and I can’t use a shoulder for a couple weeks.

Anyway, sorry for the wall of text, but you’ve all been so kind as I’ve struggled over the past couple years, and I wanted to share. The answers I have aren’t ideal, but they could be worse, and at least I know now that it’s not my imagination, and my inability to follow best practices for the average person without extreme pain isn’t some moral failing, but a legitimate medical issue. I’ve changed things up a bit and have some hard limits in place to reduce overextending connective tissue - think side-lying leg lifts, for instance: I have an upper and lower limit of range that I’m flexible enough to go past, but no longer do - that keeps my hip from sublaxing AND forces muscle tissue to handle the entire load itself. Body weight only for now. And paying close attention when walking and running to avoid hips, knees, and ankles from sublaxing. It’s been a few weeks of that and I’m happy to report less overall chronic pain!
Yay for an explanation and a path to, if not a solution, at least mitigation!
 
Tangentially related to ST scheduling, and also an update from me, to be filed under Know and Respect Thy Limitations, I guess…

I’ve been battling weird chronic soft tissue pain in and around joints for years now, and have seen a bunch of different specialists who’ve provided no real answers. I’ve been told “stop doing yoga” by one doctor, “absolutely keep doing yoga” by another, prescribed PT that made the pain exponentially worse, and so on. The only constants were agreement among all that I have hypermobile joints and perimenopause is more than likely part of the picture. But no real diagnoses, and no remedies offered.

Well, it turns out “hypermobile” isn’t just an observation: it’s a DIAGNOSIS. Literally nobody told me that: I found it while looking through my clinical notes, mentioned it to a friend who has Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome, and she hooked me up with a doctor who specializes in EDS and Hypermobility Spectrum Disorder. I fit all criteria for HSD. And that diagnosis finally got me to the appropriate information for managing it.

HSD may or may not fall under the autoimmune umbrella - it needs more study, but is so often seen in people who have other autoimmune diseases, it seems very likely. It can be very affected by shifts in hormones - so yes, perimenopause can be a big player in how HSD impacts someone on any given day. And basically, the problem with HSD in athletes is that the more connective tissue (tendons, ligaments) are stretched, the more hypermobile they become, and then you have joints out of alignment, pulling on muscle tissue and/or creating friction - and that hurts. It turns out, joints (like knees, shoulders, hips, spine, wrists, ankles…) partially dislocating and snapping back into socket on the regular isn’t normal - I never knew that, so I’ve never thought to mention it. It’s been my normal since childhood.

The key seems to be keeping muscle tissue strong and supple, while avoiding overstretching connective tissue. Which is basically what I’d figured out without knowing the why of it on my own. Yoga is good and fine… so long as I’m not over-stretching connective tissue. Running is… well, not great TBH. But mixing it up with walk intervals and doing less of it is okay. ST is the toughest element to figure out, but the key seems to be muscle isolation - which is the opposite direction of a lot of modern ST exercises that are mean to work multiple muscle groups at once. All that does is place too much pressure on my hypermobile joints, which buckle and BAM - a few reps of weights and I can’t use a shoulder for a couple weeks.

Anyway, sorry for the wall of text, but you’ve all been so kind as I’ve struggled over the past couple years, and I wanted to share. The answers I have aren’t ideal, but they could be worse, and at least I know now that it’s not my imagination, and my inability to follow best practices for the average person without extreme pain isn’t some moral failing, but a legitimate medical issue. I’ve changed things up a bit and have some hard limits in place to reduce overextending connective tissue - think side-lying leg lifts, for instance: I have an upper and lower limit of range that I’m flexible enough to go past, but no longer do - that keeps my hip from sublaxing AND forces muscle tissue to handle the entire load itself. Body weight only for now. And paying close attention when walking and running to avoid hips, knees, and ankles from sublaxing. It’s been a few weeks of that and I’m happy to report less overall chronic pain!
Glad you've finally gotten some answers!!
 
Where should I fit these 3 strength workouts in?
You’ve already gotten some good feedback but I’ll also add the idea that has always been passed along to me. Keep your hard days hard and your easy days easy. In addition to that on days I have running and strength I always put the activity that is my main focus first. So I always do my run first then lift.
 
Really random, but I got a new phone and built a new playlist in iTunes, which meant I had to finally hook up my new phone to my Mac. It completely jumbled the album covers on my phone, which is annoying to no end. There doesn't seem to be a fix either.
 
Really random, but I got a new phone and built a new playlist in iTunes, which meant I had to finally hook up my new phone to my Mac. It completely jumbled the album covers on my phone, which is annoying to no end. There doesn't seem to be a fix either.
Mine did that, too. So annoying. I mostly use Spotify now but I have some Star Wars albums that aren’t available anymore.
 
Tangentially related to ST scheduling, and also an update from me, to be filed under Know and Respect Thy Limitations, I guess…

I’ve been battling weird chronic soft tissue pain in and around joints for years now, and have seen a bunch of different specialists who’ve provided no real answers. I’ve been told “stop doing yoga” by one doctor, “absolutely keep doing yoga” by another, prescribed PT that made the pain exponentially worse, and so on. The only constants were agreement among all that I have hypermobile joints and perimenopause is more than likely part of the picture. But no real diagnoses, and no remedies offered.

Well, it turns out “hypermobile” isn’t just an observation: it’s a DIAGNOSIS. Literally nobody told me that: I found it while looking through my clinical notes, mentioned it to a friend who has Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome, and she hooked me up with a doctor who specializes in EDS and Hypermobility Spectrum Disorder. I fit all criteria for HSD. And that diagnosis finally got me to the appropriate information for managing it.

HSD may or may not fall under the autoimmune umbrella - it needs more study, but is so often seen in people who have other autoimmune diseases, it seems very likely. It can be very affected by shifts in hormones - so yes, perimenopause can be a big player in how HSD impacts someone on any given day. And basically, the problem with HSD in athletes is that the more connective tissue (tendons, ligaments) are stretched, the more hypermobile they become, and then you have joints out of alignment, pulling on muscle tissue and/or creating friction - and that hurts. It turns out, joints (like knees, shoulders, hips, spine, wrists, ankles…) partially dislocating and snapping back into socket on the regular isn’t normal - I never knew that, so I’ve never thought to mention it. It’s been my normal since childhood.

The key seems to be keeping muscle tissue strong and supple, while avoiding overstretching connective tissue. Which is basically what I’d figured out without knowing the why of it on my own. Yoga is good and fine… so long as I’m not over-stretching connective tissue. Running is… well, not great TBH. But mixing it up with walk intervals and doing less of it is okay. ST is the toughest element to figure out, but the key seems to be muscle isolation - which is the opposite direction of a lot of modern ST exercises that are mean to work multiple muscle groups at once. All that does is place too much pressure on my hypermobile joints, which buckle and BAM - a few reps of weights and I can’t use a shoulder for a couple weeks.

Anyway, sorry for the wall of text, but you’ve all been so kind as I’ve struggled over the past couple years, and I wanted to share. The answers I have aren’t ideal, but they could be worse, and at least I know now that it’s not my imagination, and my inability to follow best practices for the average person without extreme pain isn’t some moral failing, but a legitimate medical issue. I’ve changed things up a bit and have some hard limits in place to reduce overextending connective tissue - think side-lying leg lifts, for instance: I have an upper and lower limit of range that I’m flexible enough to go past, but no longer do - that keeps my hip from sublaxing AND forces muscle tissue to handle the entire load itself. Body weight only for now. And paying close attention when walking and running to avoid hips, knees, and ankles from sublaxing. It’s been a few weeks of that and I’m happy to report less overall chronic pain!
I'm glad you finally got some answers and that you're having less pain!
 

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