Member Cruise or Sales Promotion - breaking the by-laws

[OhioDVC]

I have been on 3 of the last 5 member cruises, my wife 4 out of 5 – don’t ask sore subject!

This last Member Cruise was anything but a MEMBER CRUISE. Here is why I say that… Disney Vacation Development DVD is changing the availability of who gets to go on the cruise based on if you are continuing to add points on to your membership.

I purchased 250 points on the cruise and got a $10 incentive and a free Cat 6 cabin on the 2008 members cruise. I complained to my Guide that I did not like the fact that on the 2007 Member Cruise, past member cruisers were discriminated against by allowing members who did not cruise before get reservations first. I was told that is was a “business decision to sell more points”. He said the sales on the members’ cruise were declining each year and DVD needed to increase sales. They figured that the members who cruised several times had all the points they needed and they wanted to increase the pool of potential buyers.

This is where I feel DVC BROKE the by-laws of the timeshare. They provided preferential booking to members based on their POTENTIAL to purchase more points from DVD. You will not find this authorized anywhere in the by-laws. When I mentioned this to the Guide, he told me that going on a Member Cruise or using your points on Disney Cruise Line is not a guaranteed benefit and members should be happy with what they get.

To repeat, I feel giving preferential booking windows to members based on their potential to add on points in not permitted in the timeshare by-laws.

I ask what made DVD decide to give a free Cat 6 cabin if a member bought 250 points…Guide said that DVD felt that a member who purchased that many points had a high potential to buy again based on past statistics so they wanted them back on board again.

Put this in perspective with the fact that members purchasing from the sales office in Disneyland get a two week window ahead of all other member to purchase Disney Grand California Villas, I see a very disturbing trend.

What sales gimmick will be next?

Will our booking windows change if we added on points in the last year or two?

I see a little less pixie dust in DVC/DVD future.

And yes, before anyone says it, I do realize DVD is in business to make money, but I expect them to do it within the timeshare by-laws.

Your thoughts?

 

[sjdisneywedding]

I see what you mean but...

it looks as though your situation is just not much more than an incentive, no?
i see it as along the lines of giving certain incentives in person wherever that may be, everyone there is entitled to the incentive

maybe I am misunderstanding, but it seems if you are on the cruise and you buy points you get the free cruise

but I am not sure, does that mean you cant go on the cruise at all, if you do not buy points? I am not sure what you mean by preferential booking, so past members who have cruised cant book the same cruise as new members. I am not getting this part

the DL situation seems a bit different to me, there they are saying you had to have bought at DL in order to get a future POINTS at DL

incentives will always be different for those buying in, but points themselves should not be restricted to certain members

its like saying you cant buy points because you never went on a cruise, or you cant buy AKV points yet because you never stayed there prior

 

[OhioDVC]

For the 2007 Member Cruise, priority was given to members that had never cruised before, right or wrong, that is not stated in the by-laws that DVC can do this. The reason the guide gave was so that DVC could sell more points.

To support my point that DVC is giving priority to members who keep buying points I mentioned the fact that I got the free cabin as an incentive. DVD can give whatever incentives they want, not a problem with the by-laws.

I see a trend of giving priority to members for certain reservations based on their potential to purchase more points, I feel that is totally wrong and against the stated by-laws.

Example

1) 2007 member cruise gave priority to members who did not cruise before, higher potential to buy more points then the usual group of DVC members on cruise
2) giving member who purchased a large number of points on the 2007 member cruise a free cabin on the 2008 cruise, if you buy a lot this time, we want you back to buy a lot next time
3) giving members who purchased DVC through the sales office in CA a two week priority window over members who purchased in FL, special enticement to buy more points closer to home, sounds like high pressure sales tactics - limit time offer specially for you, but you only have two weeks before we let everyone buy

 

[Horace Horsecollar]

To repeat, I feel giving preferential booking windows to members based on their potential to add on points in not permitted in the timeshare by-laws.

Please cite the clause in the Public Offering Statement (which is, I think, what you mean by "timeshare by-laws") that Disney is breaking.

It's one thing to express disappointment. It's another thing to accuse a business of illegal actions such as violating the terms of a binding agreement. You're making a serious accusation.

The Public Offering Statement that I received does not deal with business arrangements between Disney Vacation Development and Disney Cruise Line.

Also, remember that the "Member Cruise" is not a DVC product.

 

[LIFERBABE]

I dont know about by-laws, but I was completely and totally turned off by DVC's sales tactics on the 2006 Member Cruise and the preferential booking for newbies for 2007, that I decided that I will not cruise with DVC again.

I am not paying a premium to be captive on a ship with pushy marketing people that only speak to you if you want to add on. There was literally nothing to do in the evenings, as DCL had cleared the schedule to allow DVC to schedule their events, which DVC fell through on. I am telling you, our Navigator had 3 nights of World Cup Soccer as the evening event besides the shows.

Also, the 2006 cruise was completely disorganized and we didnt receive our navigators for the next days events until after 10 pm the night before. It was impossible to try to see the guest speakers this way.

I will leave the cruising to the ones that make their living at, DCL. The guests and gifts and tips included, was not worth the aggravation that I still feel about the DVC cruise.

I also did not appreciate them delaying our time on Castaway Cay so that we would all attend their cheesy sales show.

I went on the Costa Maya Cruise in Sep 2006 and then on the DVC cruise in Oct 2006 and the only thing wrong with the DVC cruise, was DVC.
DVC had a sales staff on the ship, no event staff. All they cared about was sales.
The 2005 DVC cruise had an event staff that went out of their way to make us feel special and ensure we had a good time. Sadly there was no one like that on the 2006 and from the reports of the 2007, doesnt seem like much has changed.

 

[WDWLVR]

I don't see where DVC is breaking any by-laws. What DVC has promised and what they have delivered has been home-like accomodations with a fixed point cost each year and yearly dues.

Things like the Member Mixers, Member Homecoming and the Member Cruises are not part of what we bought into. Now having said that I wasn't happy on how they handled booking for the 2007 cruise but I think the reasoning you were told was spot on. Do I think it was a wise move on DVC's part? No because I think in some ways it backfired on them.

We've been on every full dedicated Member Cruise (DVC also counts the cruise for the 10th anniversary where they took over 1/2 the ship and we weren't on that). On every cruise there have been new cruisers and returning cruisers. We all had an equal chance to call in and get on. On every one of those cruises I've heard of people going on the waitlist (even a month or more after call in day) and still manage to get on the ship. I've also seen a number of people do add ons. Sometimes it is a first time cruiser but often it wasn't. Still it was DVC's decision to do it as they wanted whether we agreed with it or not.

I do agree that the feel of the 2006 cruise was a much harder sell than the 2005 cruise. I think DVC learned a bit from the negative feedback they got. The feel of the 2007 cruise while still sales oriented in some ways was much happier and fun.

Where the Member Cruises to me have always excelled has been in the special guests they bring on board. That is one area where I think 2007 rose above any of the others. The Legends were amazing.

As I've said in other posts. Cruising isn't for everyone and a DVC Member Cruise especially isn't for everyone. If you are just going for the cruise experience than a DVC Member Cruise probably isn't your best value. However if you are like me and appreciate the special guests than the DVC Member Cruise is a value and that is one reason we'll be calling in on November 17th.

Will there always be parts of it where they are trying to get you to add on points? Sure! That's why they are in business, but you don't have to go to those presentations. Yes our arrival at Castaway Cay was a little delayed again this year because of one of thier shows. I guess because it wasn't a shock this year I kind of just went with the flow. We still had plenty of time to enjoy the island. In addition I think that the show itself offered more than a hard core sales pitch. The prizes seemed better and there were more of them. Plus as I said knowing it was a sales pitch going in you didn't have to attend. I did, DH didn't. We were both happy.

edited to add - DVC did some amazing things this past cruise like two special nighttime performances. They also dropped the ball (pun intended) on the Legends Ball. I hope they learned from the feedback this year. In addition one area that DVC can greatly improve on is the communication before the cruise. We all love surprises but a little more info is always helpful. They look one step this past year with a special web page, now lets hope they do even better with a special web page and more frequent info.

 

[OhioDVC]

I have and have read the entire legal offering cover the timeshare public offering. At no place is there any discussion about allowing members priority over other members in making reservations for the cruise, members cruise or otherwise. As members we get 11 month booking window at home resort and 7 months at others. At one time they had a list at Christmas time to even out reservations but I believe they have stop that long ago.

My point is...

From the mouth of the DVC Guide - The whole reason to give preferential I treatment to members who did not cruise before was to increase the sales.

DVC does not have the right, under the published public offering to give certain members advantages or early bookings based on their potential to purchase more points. Every DVC member should be treat the same (except for 11/7 booking windows stated in public offering)

Incentives are not covered under the public offering and I have no disagreement with the incentives

I guess the root of the issue is...Did DVD contract out the ship or did DVC contract out the ship for a Member Cruise. If Disney Vacation Develop did as a massive sale promotion, they can do whatever they want, but if Disney
Vacation Club contracted out the ship they must treat all members equally under the published by-laws. I assume that DVC contracted out the Wonder, I could be wrong.

After being a member for over 13+ years and adding on 11 times I feel DVC is moving away from the Magic and moving more to the money. Personal opinion from someone who has made 50+ trips to Disney over the last 13 years and has notice quality slipping over the past 3-4 years.

Numerous place on this site you've seen people express the impression that DVC treats member as "we got you money already, your not paying guest". This is just another example of that attitude

 

[DVC Mike]

I have and have read the entire legal offering cover the timeshare public offering.

Please quote the relevant sections of the POS that you feel DVC is violating, and then we can have a discussion if they did or not.

Otherwise, you're just expressing your own personal dissatisfaction with the way DVC may have decided to book the member cruise -- which is your right.

But don't say DVC is violating the POS without quoting relevant sections from the POS as "proof".

 

[sjdisneywedding]

Example

1) 2007 member cruise gave priority to members who did not cruise before, higher potential to buy more points then the usual group of DVC members on cruise
2) giving member who purchased a large number of points on the 2007 member cruise a free cabin on the 2008 cruise, if you buy a lot this time, we want you back to buy a lot next time
3) giving members who purchased DVC through the sales office in CA a two week priority window over members who purchased in FL, special enticement to buy more points closer to home, sounds like high pressure sales tactics - limit time offer specially for you, but you only have two weeks before we let everyone buy

please with the DL GC DVC example its nowhere near the same thing

you are comparing apples to oranges, giving existing members priority on how they can use their points is completely different than giving priority to BUYING points in gereral, its not even in the same universe

as long as every member is given a chance to get on that cruise I cant see what the complaint is at all

 

[cherylp3]

I agree - I don't think DVC has violated any of the bylaws.

also I hope you join us on the cruise thread
http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1620941&page=14

 

[OhioDVC]

There is no section to quote. There is no mention of prioritizing members based on past purchases in the legal offering. There is no mention of giving members who haven't cruised on the Member Cruise before a one month priority over those who have, or did I miss it? Can you please quote the section that authorizes DVC to do this? There is nothing allowing prioritizing members over other members except for the home resort rules for 7/11 months.

I am only relaying what the Disney sales guide told me concerning how and why DVC prioritized reservations for the 2007 Member Cruise.

DVC can only enforce rules and regulations specifically stipulated in the legal offering. They can't make things up as they go along, that is why there are legal offerings and by-laws and amendments and timeshare meetings to vote on new amendments.

I understand that they are not prioritizing the 2008 cruise like the 2007 because of all the complaints.

Maybe you've been sprinkled with a little too much pixie dust. Sit down and read the legal offering. You might be surprised what is and isn't in the legal document.

This is not my opinion about why the 2007 Member Cruise was prioritized for certain members, it was the statement of the DVC guide who did agree that there was nothing in the legal offering covering giving prioritization to members who hadn't cruised before to help increase sales

DVC is a great company but you are foolish if you think sales and profits have nothing to do with their motivation.

 

[OhioDVC]

If you still think I'm nuts thinking that the Mouse keeps his eye on $$$$$

Then why the 18% tip included on ALL meals starting 1 Jan 08

Email from another post from Guest Services concern DDE

"We would also like to inform you that the Walt Disney World® Resort will be implementing an across property policy change regarding gratuity at all food and beverage locations. Effective January 1, 2008, 18% gratuity will be added to all transactions, regardless of party size. Thank you for your continued support."

I don't know about you but I don't tip 18% at McDonalds or at Disney when I get counter service, no problem tipping 20% for a nice sit down diner with good service

 

[DVC Mike]

There is no section to quote. There is no mention of prioritizing members based on past purchases in the legal offering. There is no mention of giving members who haven't cruised on the Member Cruise before a one month priority over those who have, or did I miss it? Can you please quote the section that authorizes DVC to do this? There is nothing allowing prioritizing members over other members except for the home resort rules for 7/11 months.

DVC can only enforce rules and regulations specifically stipulated in the legal offering. They can't make things up as they go along, that is why there are legal offerings and by-laws and amendments and timeshare meetings to vote on new amendments.

Sit down and read the legal offering. You might be surprised what is and isn't in the legal document.

You are confusing the POS rules regarding making reservations at DVC resorts with making reservations for DCL. The ability to use your DVC points to book DCL falls under the Disney Collection, and DVC explicity states "Program terms and conditions are subject to change without notice".

DVC can change the number of points required to book DCL. They can even eliminate the ability to book DCL all together. They can do pretty much whatever they want, as they made absolutely no guarantees about using your points to book a Disney cruise!

In short, all the rules in the POS refer to using your DVC membership within the DVC resort system, and not for DCL.

 

[Charlesaway]

There is no section to quote. There is no mention of prioritizing members based on past purchases in the legal offering. There is no mention of giving members who haven't cruised on the Member Cruise before a one month priority over those who have, or did I miss it?

Since there is no mention of prioritizing members based on past purchases, then one would have to assume there is no mention of it being prohibited.

 

[cobbler]

There is no mention of giving members who haven't cruised on the Member Cruise before a one month priority over those who have, or did I miss it?

Actually the new cruisers who won the "lottery" were given a one week priority.

ETA:
And remember you are hearing it from a sales guide. And they don't represent management of DVC, they are just sales people.

 

[DebbieB]

I can see your point but I think the members cruise is a special event, not covered by the regular DVC accomodations provisions. DVC is in effect renting out the ship, they can invite whoever they want. If they said new members would have priority to book the first week of December at WDW DVC resorts, then that would be against the contract.