Current owners: Do you feel that renters are impacting resort availability?

[HyperspaceMountainPilot]

Unfortunately unless Disney sees it as a major hit to their bottom line they don't care.

My hope is that as demand softens (DVC just launched a new 40% off for your friends! promotion this week), Disney (the hotel side) will have sufficient motivation to crack down because commercial renters are getting $30-40/pt renting AKV and BWV, and that’s money that their “guests” aren’t spending at moderate/deluxe hotels. This will become even more imperative when new PVB owners are furious they can never get standard view rooms in the tower (I assume RIV and CFW are slightly less awful because direct points don’t make sense for commercial rentals…but perhaps the fire sale on OKW will start to cause headaches there as well).

Disney is terrible about spending the extra effort to block scripts that allow people to snag rooms and dining reservations— I’ve heard rumors that some people have scripts for VQs as well. I was going to say that maybe people should have to call for the first 24 hours at the 11mo mark, but I suspect we are already at a point where someone could spin up a network of “virtual assistants” who could competently manage a DVC booking script.

 

[Bearval]

My hope is that as demand softens (DVC just launched a new 40% off for your friends! promotion this week), Disney (the hotel side) will have sufficient motivation to crack down because commercial renters are getting $30-40/pt renting AKV and BWV, and that’s money that their “guests” aren’t spending at moderate/deluxe hotels. This will become even more imperative when new PVB owners are furious they can never get standard view rooms in the tower (I assume RIV and CFW are slightly less awful because direct points don’t make sense for commercial rentals…but perhaps the fire sale on OKW will start to cause headaches there as well).

Disney is terrible about spending the extra effort to block scripts that allow people to snag rooms and dining reservations— I’ve heard rumors that some people have scripts for VQs as well. I was going to say that maybe people should have to call for the first 24 hours at the 11mo mark, but I suspect we are already at a point where someone could spin up a network of “virtual assistants” who could competently manage a DVC booking script.

It would only take for Disney to cancel a a few renters reservations from commercial renters on the day they show up to put a major dent into this activity. Unfortunately the renters are going to get screwed the worst but you can bet they will scream ( and post online ) the loudest, demand reimbursement from the agency for not only the cost of renting the points but they will also want transportation costs and other expenses . Also the owner of those points will have to refund the agency along with their points now going into holding. If the commercial renters felt the negative press they received from how they handled the COVID debacle was bad that will be nothing compared to this.

 

[Chuck S]

It would only take for Disney to cancel a a few renters reservations from commercial renters on the day they show up to put a major dent into this activity. Unfortunately the renters are going to get screwed the worst but you can bet they will scream ( and post online ) the loudest, demand reimbursement from the agency for not only the cost of renting the points but they will also want transportation costs and other expenses . Also the owner of those points will have to refund the agency along with their points now going into holding. If the commercial renters felt the negative press they received from how they handled the COVID debacle was bad that will be nothing compared to this.

If Disney were to wait and cancel such reservations out from under an innocent renter on the day of arrival, it would be a disaster for Disney and DVC owners, Disney would once again face a world of bad publicity once the bloggosphere got hold of the story, and normal everyday DVC Owners that are trying to rent out a few rxtra points would see their rental prices pl;ummet so as not to even cover the dues on those points. So no, that is a terrible idea, IMO. DVC would need to inform the owners that controls such reservations well in advance.

There is no quick and easy solution that doesn't ultimately harm the reputation of DVC, Disney World, and general DVC Ownership.

 

[intamin]

At the end of the day, whether we like it or not, these commercial renters bought DVC like you and I and deserve to book these rooms. Now on the other hand, if they're using some accessory program to gain an advantage and running scripts to book value rooms that's a different story. It should violate the TOS in some form. I'm not sure what the legality of it would be though, maybe instead of being able to book online, being forced to call in to book reservations at 11 months instead. I'm just thinking out loud here. However, if they are legitimately going through the website like everyone else, it's in their right to book a value studio every single day if they so please.

 

[lowlight]

At the end of the day, whether we like it or not, these commercial renters bought DVC like you and I and deserve to book these rooms.

Do they? The POS specifically forbids use of DVC for commercial purposes.

 

[lowlight]

There is no quick and easy solution that doesn't ultimately harm the reputation of DVC, Disney World, and general DVC Ownership.

Burn it to the ground, I say. Since when has Disney let bad publicity get in the way of improving their bottom line? Hello resale restrictions.

 

[intamin]

Do they? The POS specifically forbids use of DVC for commercial purposes.

True, I wish DVC had been more concrete in it's definition of commercial purposes in the contracts.

 

[Chuck S]

Burn it to the ground, I say. Since when has Disney let bad publicity get in the way of improving their bottom line? Hello resale restrictions.

But again, it could have devastating effects on the DVC Member that needs to occasionally rent out a few use or lose points, if poitential renters lose trust that a reservation will be there. It's not like the cash rooms that have a real cancellation policy,
And even the resale market when a member decides to sell a contract so be very careful what you wish for.

 

[Bearval]

If Disney were to wait and cancel such reservations out from under an innocent renter on the day of arrival, it would be a disaster for Disney and DVC owners, Disney would once again face a world of bad publicity once the bloggosphere got hold of the story, and normal everyday DVC Owners that are trying to rent out a few rxtra points would see their rental prices pl;ummet so as not to even cover the dues on those points. So no, that is a terrible idea, IMO. DVC would need to inform the owners that controls such reservations well in advance.

There is no quick and easy solution that doesn't ultimately harm the reputation of DVC, Disney World, and general DVC Ownership.

I think you over estimate the amount of bad publicity that it would generate that Disney would care about since they could just counter by stating what was done ( the renting of points thru a commercial enterprise) is a violation of the contract and that the DVC owners and commercial sites were well aware that reservations could be canceled at anytime for violating the policy. Disney wouldn't go after someone trying to rent out the points themselves, this has always been allowed. They could however go after the commercial third parties that are used which could be considered commercial renting of points which is a violation. If I were Disney , I would send notice to all DVC owners and the third party commercial sites that the reservations they sell with either points that they own or points of others that they are renting out commercially could be canceled at anytime with no notice. It would then be up to a site such as " David's" to notify potential customers that there is a chance you can show up at the resort you rented and be denied access. The renters dispute would be with David's and not Disney especially if the renters were not informed of this by the site they rented the points from. I think the "bad" publicity this would generate will be towards the third party commercial sites that do not make it crystal clear to their customers about the chance they can be denied access and not Disney. They will be slamming and bashing the sites for not informing them this could happen.

 

[Chuck S]

I think you over estimate the amount of bad publicity that it would generate that Disney would care about since they could just counter by stating what was done ( the renting of points thru a commercial enterprise) is a violation of the contract and that the DVC owners and commercial sites were well aware that reservations could be canceled at anytime for violating the policy. Disney wouldn't go after someone trying to rent out the points themselves, this has always been allowed. They could however go after the commercial third parties that are used which could be considered commercial renting of points which is a violation. If I were Disney , I would send notice to all DVC owners and the third party commercial sites that the reservations they sell with either points that they own or points of others that they are renting out commercially could be canceled at anytime with no notice. It would then be up to a site such as " David's" to notify potential customers that there is a chance you can show up at the resort you rented and be denied access. The renters dispute would be with David's and not Disney especially if the renters were not informed of this by the site they rented the points from. I think the "bad" publicity this would generate will be towards the third party commercial sites that do not make it crystal clear to their customers about the chance they can be denied access and not Disney. They will be slamming and bashing the sites for not informing them this could happen.

I doubt the Renters would make that distinction between a "commercial renter" and an individual DVC Owner renting the points themselves. Especially if they decide to make a social media video about it, all people will really hear is "DVC Cancelled my rental, and I lost money." Do most renters even really comprehend the legal differences between renting from a broker, or a commercial renter, or renting points from an individual here on the DIS Rental board? It takes two volunteer moderators several hours a day just to operate our small rental board here, because so many people either don't read the Required Reading thread, both owners and renters, or don't understand what they've read. We decline two to three threads (often more) per day. .

 

[Bearval]

I doubt the Renters would make that distinction between a "commercial renter" and an individual DVC Owner renting the points themselves. Especially if they decide to make a social media video about it, all people will really hear is "DVC Cancelled my rental, and I lost money." Do most renters even really comprehend the legal differences between renting from a broker, or a commercial renter, or renting points from an individual here on the DIS Rental board? It takes two volunteer moderators several hours a day just to operate our small rental board here, because so many people either don't read the Required Reading thread, both owners and renters, or don't understand what they've read. We decline two to three threads (often more) per day. .

Well that maybe true but the renter will find out real quick on the legal difference if they try and sue DVC for their financial loss. Bottom line is if Disney did this they would be successful in my opinion Shutting down the commercial rental sites.

 

[Chuck S]

Well that maybe true but the renter will find out real quick on the legal difference if they try and sue DVC for their financial loss. Bottom line is if Disney did this they would be successful in my opinion Shutting down the commercial rental sites.

But...what is the definition of a Commercial Rental Site? Would it be any site that takes any type of payment in exchange for allowing a DVC Owner to use that site to post their points and reservations? Would it be a site that is offering more than 20 existing reservations at any time? Would it be a broker site like David's amd DVC Rental Store? And don't forget that Disney/DVC itself, (though specifically exempted in the POS) could technically be considered a commercial renter. It is a can of worms that Disney Legal likiely doesn't want to open or delve into with the Florida Timeshare Board, as we specifically have the right to rent. And then there other issues...would/could it apply to non-US based websites, legally? And how would Disney force those sites to comply? Would commercial websites persist if they simply moved to non-US based servers?

 

[lowlight]

It is a can of worms that Disney Legal likiely doesn't want to open or delve into with the Florida Timeshare Board, as we specifically have the right to rent.

They could be forced to delve into it by the membership if the failure to enforce their own POS is shown to be detrimental to membership. It’s a two way contract, not a suggestion. I bought DVC to use, not to rent my points. While that’s a nice contingency for when life happens, it’s rare. 98% of my points have historically been used by myself, so if you’re asking me if I care what happens to the 2% of points I’ve ever rented, I don’t care is the answer. Make renting as hard as possible, let me book the dang weeks I want to without competing with 9000 people who don’t own DVC (renters) or LLC’s that exist to rent commercially. It’s great that people who don’t go week 48-52 or any other high demand week don’t have a problem, but it doesn’t meant the problem doesn’t exist. And “go another week” doesn’t make a good DVC sales slogan.

 

[iheartglaciers]

I feel like commercial renters own their points just like the rest of us and they can use their points however they'd like. The points would get used whether it was a renter or owner. Now, it might result in a bit more strain on studios and low point rooms, since I'm guessing renters tend to book the low point rooms, but who knows.

 

[Chuck S]

They could be forced to delve into it by the membership if the failure to enforce their own POS is shown to be detrimental to membership. It’s a two way contract, not a suggestion. I bought DVC to use, not to rent my points. While that’s a nice contingency for when life happens, it’s rare. 98% of my points have historically been used by myself, so if you’re asking me if I care what happens to the 2% of points I’ve ever rented, I don’t care is the answer. Make renting as hard as possible, let me book the dang weeks I want to without competing with 9000 people who don’t own DVC (renters) or LLC’s that exist to rent commercially. It’s great that people who don’t go week 48-52 or any other high demand week don’t have a problem, but it doesn’t meant the problem doesn’t exist. And “go another week” doesn’t make a good DVC sales slogan.

The one thing that could help, if you're specifically upset about weeks 48 to 52 would be to demand DVC use a system that is already in place in the POS. The high demand lottery...which basically did away with home resort priority for that time frame, and those able to book were selected and contacted by DVC. You would have the same odds of getting say, your home resort as someone owning at Vero, Hilton Head, or Aulani or any other DVC resort. If you were contacted and did not book two years in a row, you could niot register for the lottery again the the 3rd year. It would seem fair. Of course, there's no guarantee you'be be able to book exactly what you want then, too, maybe not even your desired resort, or even your home resort, unless you had a fixed week contract. And it is something you've already agreed to, by default.

But my guess is that your odds would not be significantly better using the lottery than they are currently.

 

[lowlight]

I feel like commercial renters own their points just like the rest of us and they can use their points however they'd like.

This is the second time I’ve read this on this thread. Rentals are permitted. Renting for commercial purposes is not permitted. The POS stated that in excess of 20 reservations in 12 months was considered commercial activity, although they have changed the language to be stronger recently. Commercial renters are not a thing with DVC, so they don’t own their points like the rest of us- that’s the whole point.

 

[lowlight]

The one thing that could help, if you're specifically upset about weeks 48 to 52 would be to demand DVC use a system that is already in place in the POS.

It’s wonderful that you agree with me. They should enforce the POS, that would help tremendously. We wouldn’t even need the lottery if they did that.

 

[iheartglaciers]

This is the second time I’ve read this on this thread. Rentals are permitted. Renting for commercial purposes is not permitted. The POS stated that in excess of 20 reservations in 12 months was considered commercial activity, although they have changed the language to be stronger recently. Commercial renters are not a thing with DVC, so they don’t own their points like the rest of us- that’s the whole point.

I guess I mean more like high volume renters (which I assume is what OP meant) versus commercial renters since they’re no one is allowed more than 20 reservations per 12 month period.

 

[tjkraz]

The simplest thing to DVC to do is to start enforcing its own rules. There are stated limits as to how many points an individual can own. I'm doing this from memory but I think it's 2000 points at a single resort and 5000 overall. So let's actually enforce that. It's pretty easy to determine if a single person is listed as an officer of a dozen different LLCs which collectively blow past the limits.

And in conjunction, start enforcing the limit of 20 rental reservations per year. The number of members who would actually book more than 20 reservations without themselves as the lead guest is infinitely small. And if there's actually someone out there who routinely books 20+ giveaway trips for friends and relatives in a year, well, I'm sorry but you're collateral damage.

Further down the road, tech enhancements to the website such as:

1. Eliminate the ability to use APIs to automatically query availability
2. Better management of waitlists, so that rooms aren't routinely slipping thru and being available to book
3. Eliminate any point management glitches, like allowing reservation points to be reapplied to existing reservations

Nobody is expecting massive changes which result in AKV Value rooms to remain bookable at 7 months. But any changes which make it more difficult for the worst offenders to operate will ultimately benefit the rest of the membership.

 

[kilik64]

There are stated limits as to how many points an individual can own. I'm doing this from memory but I think it's 2000 points at a single resort and 5000 overall.

Its 4000 and 8000 (4k per resort, 8k per membership)