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Old 10-17-2013, 12:41 AM   #271
cmwade77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vidia2

Sorry, I just didn't understand what you meant. Sounds like a better system to me. Too bad we don't have a say.
it's Ok, I just didn't know what the question was.

But we do get a say, at least if enough people write Disney with feedback. Believe me they are listening right now.

What they won't do is simply go back to the old system, but if enough people write requesting something like I have suggested, since it would have similar results to the return time passes, we might have a chance to get it.
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Old 10-17-2013, 04:27 AM   #272
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Originally Posted by cmwade77 View Post

it's Ok, I just didn't know what the question was.

But we do get a say, at least if enough people write Disney with feedback. Believe me they are listening right now.

What they won't do is simply go back to the old system, but if enough people write requesting something like I have suggested, since it would have similar results to the return time passes, we might have a chance to get it.
Your right but I don't think they will go to that system they will make small changes. But don't think they will implement where you get right on a ride then have to wait. I could be wrong but since other theme park do basically the same system their no reason for them to make that change. I see them making change to return times when as a pp said about a ride closing I see some other small changes but not where you get right on the first ride then wait for the rest of your rides. Maybe they make it simpler but they want to stay away from people trying to abuse it as min as they can.




I am in no way saying no one should write Disney please do let them know what works and what dose. As pin as you tried it let them know they my change it to that system I could be wrong In my opinion I don't think so. But they are differently listening and will make some changes As they see fit.
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Old 10-17-2013, 06:56 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by cmwade77 View Post
I have said it before and I will say it again, the simple solution is to stop doing return times. Instead when you first get in line for the first ride of the day, write the date, time, wait time and the time the card will next be valid at. Then the person can't go on the next ride until the wait time of the first one has passed and this will continue throughout the day at each attraction.
I think the problem with this idea at Disney (both DL/DCA and WDW) is that while it might reduce the abuse issues, it does not reduce the chances of crowding at alternate entrances. Disney originally started working on the changes because of the problems with bunching and not being able to control alternate entrance waits. By giving return times the way the DAS works, some of the use of alternate entrances should be more spread out. If everyone rode first before they waited, there would still be the bunching/crowding at alternate entrances. I know that it's still there now to an extent (especially in DL/DCA), but the DAS has only been in place a week. That's something that really should get worked out with experience.
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Old 10-17-2013, 07:53 AM   #274
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmwade77 View Post
I have said it before and I will say it again, the simple solution is to stop doing return times. Instead when you first get in line for the first ride of the day, write the date, time, wait time and the time the card will next be valid at. Then the person can't go on the next ride until the wait time of the first one has passed and this will continue throughout the day at each attraction.

In order to keep this fair, everyone would need a card that needs to use accessible entrances at non mainstreamed queues. But it would ensure equal wait times, fixes many of the issues that have come up with return times and will lower the costs to run the system. Yes, there will be some issues, but all in all it would have fewer issues than return times while still accomplishing the same effect.
I'm curious how you would propose they figure the next wait time?

If they set it based on what the current wait time was for the ride just ridden, they will still need staff to write down the time you got in line and assign next wait times.
Instead of kiosks, it would have to be at the attraction, so I don't see any labor savings. In fact, it may cost more than kiosks at DL because there might need to be 2 CMs - one to sign cards for arrival time and one to assign return times (some attraction exit in a different spot).

For example, I rode Small World and waited 10 minutes for my first ride (because it took that long to walk from the entrance to board).
When I get off, the wait at Small World is now 20 minutes, so after I have gotten off, I have to go to a CM at Small World to get a new time assigned. But, is it 20 minutes in the future that is the current wait or the 10 that I waited?
And, that CM is also signing people in, so I'm sure they will get people saying, I got off 10 minutes ago, but I was waiting in line.
And, will the person with the DAS who may not understand the process think they are going right back on the ride again because that was what happened the last time they checked in with a CM?

So, anyway, now I have a 20 minute wait time on my card. I decide to go to Splash Mountain, which currently has a 60 minute wait.
It took me more than 20 minutes to walk there. When I arrive, I check in with the CM to get an arrival time and since my 'wait time' is over, I get right into the Fastpass line.
20 minutes later, I get off Splash Mountain and check in with the CM assigning return times. Since my wait in the Fastpass line was 10, the actual ride is 7 minutes send it took me 5 minutes to walk back to the time assigner CM, he puts a wait time of 22 minutes on my card.

So, in 22 minutes, I can go to any other attraction, no matter what the wait and get on right away.

I can see a lot more potential for abuse and people would very quickly figure out to go first to an attraction means they can use the Fastpass line all day without ever waiting. It would satisfy the people who want the old GAC back because it would work the same way for them, either a little extra documentation on a card.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmwade77 View Post
I honestly don't quite know why they chose not to do it my suggested way, other parks do it this way and it works very well and reduces abuse, as people know they will be waiting an equal amount of time. I am sure Disney has its reasons, but I just can't imagine what they are. And many of these other parks tried return times first, but they didn't work, much for the reasons we ate seeing now.
I'm curious what parks do it the way you are suggesting and how you know it reduces abuse?
The parks I have heard of are essentially doing the same procedure as WDW.
They may have a bit different details, like Universal/IOA in Florida allow the guest to go right into their equivalent of Fastpass line if the wait is 20 minutes or less, but the basic process is very similar.

Do I think they will tweak WDW's DAS?
Yes - once they have had it in use long enough to know what the effects of it are.

Do I think they will make major changes to it?
No - this is not something they just pulled out of a hat 4 months ago. From what I have heard, they have been working on this for about 2 years. They have looked at east other parks are doing and have changed to a system that is very similar to what other similar parks are doing.

My impression of the DAS is that is sounds workable and fair. It will mean some people who didn't plan set all will have to do some planning and there will be people that it doesn't work as well for as the GAC did.
But, GAC is gone and not coming back.

I go to WDW, not DL, but the programs at each coast should be similar.
My DD has cerebral palsy and despite being in a wheelchair (she can't walk at all), she still gets very fatigued and has low stamina. Her muscle tone goes from Barbie doll stiff to rag doll.
She has sensory issues that make waiting in some lines very difficult for her - they are too noisy, too busy and too much going on. Then , she has to contend either other guests in line who scoot by her wheelchair, pass things over her head to their friends in line and sometimes let their toddlers sit on her feet because her footrest is perfect chair height for a 2 year old.
She is obsessive compulsive about certain things, like people possibly touching her backpack. She can have meltdowns when she is at her limit (with pinching (mostly me) - we understand that she has 'hit the wall' and needs to be removed. She takes a time out until she is calmed down. A kid in meltdown is not in a frame of mind yo enjoy anyway from my point of view.
She understands, but can't talk, so if something is wrong, we often have to play 20 questions to figure out what it is. That can get frustrating to all of us, but when she is frustrated, she can't listen anymore or communicate and all we get is 'no, no, all finished' signed to us.

Our bathroom stops may take an hour (with waiting for the restroom we need) and lunch can take an hour extra because we have to feed her. And, if she has seizure or gets to a point where her day is over because she can't keep her trunk up in her wheelchair any more, her day might be over.

But, this all our life and we cope with it. Because she is a young adult, we have had lots of experience coping with it, but we do cope and make adjustments all the time.
Sometimes, it means one of us going to First Aid to put her for a rest out of her wheelchair. Sometimes it means one or all of us going back to the room.
Some days it means me or DH coming to the park at opening so we can ride the things she can't.

We did use the GAC, but we used it pretty much the way they are suggesting using DAS. We planned ahead of time which park to go to based on which was least likely to be busy. We choose attractions that had the shortest wait times and used Fastpass as much as possible. We saved the GAC for those attractions that she could not do without it. And, did not feel bad using it for things where we had an extra wait because we need the wheelchair accessible car.

So, for us, DAS will be pretty much the same as what we were doing. Of course, it will take some getting used to - it is different, but different doesn't necessarily mean bad, just different.
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Old 10-17-2013, 08:19 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by WheeledTraveler View Post
I think the problem with this idea at Disney (both DL/DCA and WDW) is that while it might reduce the abuse issues, it does not reduce the chances of crowding at alternate entrances. Disney originally started working on the changes because of the problems with bunching and not being able to control alternate entrance waits. By giving return times the way the DAS works, some of the use of alternate entrances should be more spread out. If everyone rode first before they waited, there would still be the bunching/crowding at alternate entrances. I know that it's still there now to an extent (especially in DL/DCA), but the DAS has only been in place a week. That's something that really should get worked out with experience.
Either way there won't be any less crowding at alternate entrances or Fastpass lines due to the new system. We'll all still be using those entrances and most of us will still be riding the same amount of rides using the FP line. This is really an illusion of change by giving us a token wait time in which we'll be using our other fastpasses or doing other things that we'd be doing anyway. This is intended to weed out Abusers and will do nothing about how many people are in the alt entrances. Nothing. No matter how long it takes for the castmbers to get used to the system or any other factor.
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Old 10-17-2013, 10:28 AM   #276
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Thanks Sue for your great post!
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Old 10-17-2013, 10:30 AM   #277
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I realize I am in the minority with this situation, but assuming my son is eligible for the DAS (and I think he will be), I will now be able to have him walk onto a few rides. Before, they would see him in the Convaid chair, and have us wheel up the alternate entrance. This was OK, as there was rarely a line (except Space Mt at DL).

Some lines are getting harder and harder for me to push him, the ones with hills,, up and down. I am getting older, and it is hard to hold onto that chair on a standby line, even with the brake. With FP, I can make him walk on some of them during the day. I will now make sure to try this on any rides with those long accessible entrances, to help the situation for others. I had him walk onto Space last month at WDW, and that helped me so much. I would have to see how it goes, but if I push him around in between the lines, he might be able to walk on most actual attraction lines, if they are not too long.

He would not be able to wait on long standby lines (MANY issues, including autism), but I have no problem with him waiting in general, of course. We are going in February, a slow time, which will be our plan from now on. But he does walk slow, and people are so rude on the lines, I will say. And he is slow to get in and out of some of the rides as well.
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Old 10-17-2013, 11:40 AM   #278
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Originally Posted by SueM in MN View Post
I'm curious how you would propose they figure the next wait time?

If they set it based on what the current wait time was for the ride just ridden, they will still need staff to write down the time you got in line and assign next wait times.
Instead of kiosks, it would have to be at the attraction, so I don't see any labor savings. In fact, it may cost more than kiosks at DL because there might need to be 2 CMs - one to sign cards for arrival time and one to assign return times (some attraction exit in a different spot).

For example, I rode Small World and waited 10 minutes for my first ride (because it took that long to walk from the entrance to board).
When I get off, the wait at Small World is now 20 minutes, so after I have gotten off, I have to go to a CM at Small World to get a new time assigned. But, is it 20 minutes in the future that is the current wait or the 10 that I waited?
And, that CM is also signing people in, so I'm sure they will get people saying, I got off 10 minutes ago, but I was waiting in line.
And, will the person with the DAS who may not understand the process think they are going right back on the ride again because that was what happened the last time they checked in with a CM?

So, anyway, now I have a 20 minute wait time on my card. I decide to go to Splash Mountain, which currently has a 60 minute wait.
It took me more than 20 minutes to walk there. When I arrive, I check in with the CM to get an arrival time and since my 'wait time' is over, I get right into the Fastpass line.
20 minutes later, I get off Splash Mountain and check in with the CM assigning return times. Since my wait in the Fastpass line was 10, the actual ride is 7 minutes send it took me 5 minutes to walk back to the time assigner CM, he puts a wait time of 22 minutes on my card.

So, in 22 minutes, I can go to any other attraction, no matter what the wait and get on right away.

I can see a lot more potential for abuse and people would very quickly figure out to go first to an attraction means they can use the Fastpass line all day without ever waiting. It would satisfy the people who want the old GAC back because it would work the same way for them, either a little extra documentation on a card.


I'm curious what parks do it the way you are suggesting and how you know it reduces abuse?
The parks I have heard of are essentially doing the same procedure as WDW.
They may have a bit different details, like Universal/IOA in Florida allow the guest to go right into their equivalent of Fastpass line if the wait is 20 minutes or less, but the basic process is very similar.

Do I think they will tweak WDW's DAS?
Yes - once they have had it in use long enough to know what the effects of it are.

Do I think they will make major changes to it?
No - this is not something they just pulled out of a hat 4 months ago. From what I have heard, they have been working on this for about 2 years. They have looked at east other parks are doing and have changed to a system that is very similar to what other similar parks are doing.

My impression of the DAS is that is sounds workable and fair. It will mean some people who didn't plan set all will have to do some planning and there will be people that it doesn't work as well for as the GAC did.
But, GAC is gone and not coming back.

I go to WDW, not DL, but the programs at each coast should be similar.
My DD has cerebral palsy and despite being in a wheelchair (she can't walk at all), she still gets very fatigued and has low stamina. Her muscle tone goes from Barbie doll stiff to rag doll.
She has sensory issues that make waiting in some lines very difficult for her - they are too noisy, too busy and too much going on. Then , she has to contend either other guests in line who scoot by her wheelchair, pass things over her head to their friends in line and sometimes let their toddlers sit on her feet because her footrest is perfect chair height for a 2 year old.
She is obsessive compulsive about certain things, like people possibly touching her backpack. She can have meltdowns when she is at her limit (with pinching (mostly me) - we understand that she has 'hit the wall' and needs to be removed. She takes a time out until she is calmed down. A kid in meltdown is not in a frame of mind yo enjoy anyway from my point of view.
She understands, but can't talk, so if something is wrong, we often have to play 20 questions to figure out what it is. That can get frustrating to all of us, but when she is frustrated, she can't listen anymore or communicate and all we get is 'no, no, all finished' signed to us.

Our bathroom stops may take an hour (with waiting for the restroom we need) and lunch can take an hour extra because we have to feed her. And, if she has seizure or gets to a point where her day is over because she can't keep her trunk up in her wheelchair any more, her day might be over.

But, this all our life and we cope with it. Because she is a young adult, we have had lots of experience coping with it, but we do cope and make adjustments all the time.
Sometimes, it means one of us going to First Aid to put her for a rest out of her wheelchair. Sometimes it means one or all of us going back to the room.
Some days it means me or DH coming to the park at opening so we can ride the things she can't.

We did use the GAC, but we used it pretty much the way they are suggesting using DAS. We planned ahead of time which park to go to based on which was least likely to be busy. We choose attractions that had the shortest wait times and used Fastpass as much as possible. We saved the GAC for those attractions that she could not do without it. And, did not feel bad using it for things where we had an extra wait because we need the wheelchair accessible car.

So, for us, DAS will be pretty much the same as what we were doing. Of course, it will take some getting used to - it is different, but different doesn't necessarily mean bad, just different.
Of course it would be at each attraction, but these CMs are already there, hence the savings. (The Kiosks cost a minimum of $6,000 a day to run, that is assuming 3.5 CMs per kiosk, the .5 representing the one that is the runner to GR, relieves people for breaks, etc. with a modest cost of $18 per hour per CM, which accounts for pay, benefits, etc. and an average of 12 operating hours per day with a total of 8 kiosks. This doesn't count the additional kiosks added during busier times, electricity, the physical costs of the kiosks, etc.)

Basically it would be the first CM you speak with at each attraction or in other words, the one that tells you where to go and the time would be based off the current wait time. All they need to do is when you get in line, write down the time & date you entered the line, the current posted wait time and the time the card will next be valid at. One CM can write down all of this information when you get in line. This accounts for the time that you wait in that line automatically.

As I said, other local theme parks, Universal Studios Hollywood and Sea World San Diego in particular, started with Return Time passes and ran into a lot of the issues we are already seeing at Disneyland, so they moved to the system that I am suggesting.

Now, granted, neither park has a FP system, but both have a paid front of the line system. So, yes there would need to be something done about that portion. I am not saying that my system wouldn't have issues like this to be worked out, it would, but ultimately it would eliminate the issues that we have seen creep up so far.

Some of the issues with the current system are:
  • A lot of extra walking for people with disabilities. Yes, others can get return times, but at DL, many people come by themselves.
  • Kids that have disabilities to where they don't understand going to the attraction, but not riding and then coming back. (This is more at WDW)
  • What happens when the wait time would mean that the park will be closed before your return time? Someone else can still get in the standby line at this time, but those who need assistance cannot, making the system not equal. Bottom line is if the point is to make the waits equal, they need to be completely equal.
  • If you are unable to ride an attraction or no longer feel like riding that attraction, your wait time starts over, even if you have waited the entire length of the standby line.
  • The current system does not take into account the waiting you do once you get back to the attraction and at several attractions, that wait time could be longer than the standby line was, meaning you have to wait double the length of everyone else.
  • The current system is not preventing long backups in the accessible queues.

As to how I know it reduces abuse, there's the fact that these parks have said as much in conversations that I have had with their offices. Can you tell that I am one to take an active roll in getting what I need? But in this case, I was just letting them know how well the system worked out. But beyond that, when they used Return Times, I would wait substantially longer when returning, due to more people using the system than I do with the system they have in place now. And I have seen many other similar reports.

Universal Studios Hollywood has the most sophisticated system. There is a scanner when you first get in line, the CM scans the card, the display lights up green if you are good to go and red if you need to wait longer. If it turns red, it displays what time the pass will be valid at, the CM can choose to override it, if they think there is a reason to do so though, for example, I have seen it be a 5 minute difference for someone and the CM will override it. If the screen displays green, it will display what the next time the card will be valid at is. And yes, the standard practice at all parks, aside from Disney seems to be that when the wait is 20 minutes or less, they don't worry about it.

This system would naturally disperse those needing assistance, to where there shouldn't be long backups. If they found long backups on particular attractions were still happening, they could come up with alternatives for those.

Another option that may address many of these concerns is to offer a Smartphone App that can scan the QR code on the DAS and assign return times, eliminating the need to walk all the way to the attraction or kiosk. Of course they would need physical Kiosks that could do the same thing as well, but these could even be Kiosks that double up with the FP+ kiosks at WDW and ones that are unstaffed or have minimal staffing at DL.

But the point is, that there are indeed a few issues that are not being addressed by the current system at present. Perhaps there are tweaks that they can make to address these issues and still use the return times, or they can go to a system like the one I suggested, yes as pointed out, with FP available, they would need to make some tweaks to the concept, but it can be done.

Don't get me wrong, overall, I am glad that Disney is making a change, it has been needed for a very long time, all of us who need the assistance know this much. But there are issues that still need to be ironed out and these are issues that many of us could have told them would occur prior to the roll out, which means that they should have been able to figure out that these issues would occur and plan for how to combat them. But they didn't, which means, they either didn't think it through all the way or simply didn't care about these issues, which are actually a very big deal for many people. I am definitely not saying that they should go back to the GAC, I am all for waiting my fair turn, but I am also for complete equality to those who do not need assistance. This includes things like not needing to do extra walking. For those in ECVs, the extra distance is even more problematic, as there is limited battery power available and again if they are by themselves, then what do they do?

That being said, for the style in which I tour the parks, getting a return time pass doesn't affect me all that much, because I tend to do a ride that would have a return time, then a show, then maybe a ride that wouldn't have a return time, then maybe another one that does and at DL, chances are I would pass a kiosk somewhere after my initial return time. But there are issues that I take with the current system that need to be addressed in some manner. My solution addresses all of them, but I am sure it is not the only solution out there. My point when saying write to Disney is that we do get a say, express your concerns, point out what's not working and if you like my suggested method, please tell them. And no system is going to be perfect, but what I suggested was based off of my experiences at various parks.

Hopefully this makes sense, I have written it in bits and pieces when I get a break at work. So if something doesn't seem to flow, hopefully you can understand why.
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Old 10-17-2013, 12:15 PM   #279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmwade77 View Post
Of course it would be at each attraction, but these CMs are already there, hence the savings. (The Kiosks cost a minimum of $6,000 a day to run, that is assuming 3.5 CMs per kiosk, the .5 representing the one that is the runner to GR, relieves people for breaks, etc. with a modest cost of $18 per hour per CM, which accounts for pay, benefits, etc. and an average of 12 operating hours per day with a total of 8 kiosks. This doesn't count the additional kiosks added during busier times, electricity, the physical costs of the kiosks, etc.)

Basically it would be the first CM you speak with at each attraction or in other words, the one that tells you where to go and the time would be based off the current wait time. All they need to do is when you get in line, write down the time & date you entered the line, the current posted wait time and the time the card will next be valid at. One CM can write down all of this information when you get in line. This accounts for the time that you wait in that line automatically.

As I said, other local theme parks, Universal Studios Hollywood and Sea World San Diego in particular, started with Return Time passes and ran into a lot of the issues we are already seeing at Disneyland, so they moved to the system that I am suggesting.

Now, granted, neither park has a FP system, but both have a paid front of the line system. So, yes there would need to be something done about that portion. I am not saying that my system wouldn't have issues like this to be worked out, it would, but ultimately it would eliminate the issues that we have seen creep up so far.

Some of the issues with the current system are:
[*]A lot of extra walking for people with disabilities. Yes, others can get return times, but at DL, many people come by themselves.[*]Kids that have disabilities to where they don't understand going to the attraction, but not riding and then coming back. (This is more at WDW)[*]What happens when the wait time would mean that the park will be closed before your return time? Someone else can still get in the standby line at this time, but those who need assistance cannot, making the system not equal. Bottom line is if the point is to make the waits equal, they need to be completely equal.[*]If you are unable to ride an attraction or no longer feel like riding that attraction, your wait time starts over, even if you have waited the entire length of the standby line.[*]The current system does not take into account the waiting you do once you get back to the attraction and at several attractions, that wait time could be longer than the standby line was, meaning you have to wait double the length of everyone else.[*]The current system is not preventing long backups in the accessible queues.


As to how I know it reduces abuse, there's the fact that these parks have said as much in conversations that I have had with their offices. Can you tell that I am one to take an active roll in getting what I need? But in this case, I was just letting them know how well the system worked out. But beyond that, when they used Return Times, I would wait substantially longer when returning, due to more people using the system than I do with the system they have in place now. And I have seen many other similar reports.

Universal Studios Hollywood has the most sophisticated system. There is a scanner when you first get in line, the CM scans the card, the display lights up green if you are good to go and red if you need to wait longer. If it turns red, it displays what time the pass will be valid at, the CM can choose to override it, if they think there is a reason to do so though, for example, I have seen it be a 5 minute difference for someone and the CM will override it. If the screen displays green, it will display what the next time the card will be valid at is. And yes, the standard practice at all parks, aside from Disney seems to be that when the wait is 20 minutes or less, they don't worry about it.

This system would naturally disperse those needing assistance, to where there shouldn't be long backups. If they found long backups on particular attractions were still happening, they could come up with alternatives for those.

Another option that may address many of these concerns is to offer a Smartphone App that can scan the QR code on the DAS and assign return times, eliminating the need to walk all the way to the attraction or kiosk. Of course they would need physical Kiosks that could do the same thing as well, but these could even be Kiosks that double up with the FP+ kiosks at WDW and ones that are unstaffed or have minimal staffing at DL.

But the point is, that there are indeed a few issues that are not being addressed by the current system at present. Perhaps there are tweaks that they can make to address these issues and still use the return times, or they can go to a system like the one I suggested, yes as pointed out, with FP available, they would need to make some tweaks to the concept, but it can be done.

Don't get me wrong, overall, I am glad that Disney is making a change, it has been needed for a very long time, all of us who need the assistance know this much. But there are issues that still need to be ironed out and these are issues that many of us could have told them would occur prior to the roll out, which means that they should have been able to figure out that these issues would occur and plan for how to combat them. But they didn't, which means, they either didn't think it through all the way or simply didn't care about these issues, which are actually a very big deal for many people. I am definitely not saying that they should go back to the GAC, I am all for waiting my fair turn, but I am also for complete equality to those who do not need assistance. This includes things like not needing to do extra walking. For those in ECVs, the extra distance is even more problematic, as there is limited battery power available and again if they are by themselves, then what do they do?

That being said, for the style in which I tour the parks, getting a return time pass doesn't affect me all that much, because I tend to do a ride that would have a return time, then a show, then maybe a ride that wouldn't have a return time, then maybe another one that does and at DL, chances are I would pass a kiosk somewhere after my initial return time. But there are issues that I take with the current system that need to be addressed in some manner. My solution addresses all of them, but I am sure it is not the only solution out there. My point when saying write to Disney is that we do get a say, express your concerns, point out what's not working and if you like my suggested method, please tell them. And no system is going to be perfect, but what I suggested was based off of my experiences at various parks.

Hopefully this makes sense, I have written it in bits and pieces when I get a break at work. So if something doesn't seem to flow, hopefully you can understand why.
I am not sure that figure right that seems high but if that what Disney wants why fight it. You have people who would be not happy if they removed the kiosk and you had to go to each attraction. Plus Disney can bring down the cost right now it my be high due to it being new. I am sure mr iger happy your thinking of his bottom line but sometimes spending money is worth it.
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Old 10-17-2013, 12:28 PM   #280
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I am not sure that figure right that seems high but if that what Disney wants why fight it. You have people who would be not happy if they removed the kiosk and you had to go to each attraction. Plus Disney can bring down the cost right now it my be high due to it being new. I am sure mr iger happy your thinking of his bottom line but sometimes spending money is worth it.
I would really love it if we had the option of either going to the kiosk OR the attraction.

Every time we have gone to ride RSR, we have used the same terminology with our son. "Let's go see what time we can get to ride RSR!" That idea works for him so we get the RT and go find something else to do. Going up to a kiosk with so many choices is going to be a bit of a challenge for him.

I am really interested in the potential changes that are going to happen between now and when our next trip is.
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Old 10-17-2013, 01:09 PM   #281
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I would really love it if we had the option of either going to the kiosk OR the attraction.

Every time we have gone to ride RSR, we have used the same terminology with our son. "Let's go see what time we can get to ride RSR!" That idea works for him so we get the RT and go find something else to do. Going up to a kiosk with so many choices is going to be a bit of a challenge for him.

I am really interested in the potential changes that are going to happen between now and when our next trip is.
Yeah I am sure it get better I just don't think we should be trying to find ways to save Disney money. If they are spending 6000 a day on them we should be happy that they are willing to do it for guest who need it. Once a little whole goes by I am sure the coast will go down as less cms my be needed. Then they can move them to other areas to help. Maybe they find a cm at each attraction that can answer questions and double check the times is needed.
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Old 10-17-2013, 03:47 PM   #282
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I am not sure that figure right that seems high but if that what Disney wants why fight it. You have people who would be not happy if they removed the kiosk and you had to go to each attraction. Plus Disney can bring down the cost right now it my be high due to it being new. I am sure mr iger happy your thinking of his bottom line but sometimes spending money is worth it.
Hey, I figure use the bottom line to get the system fixed and the number is actually low. On average right now, most kiosks seem to have 5-6 people at them. I am averaging 3.5 as the final number, a 12 hour day is on the low end, I am only using 8 Kiosks, when there are 10 during busier times and the cost to disney of $18/hr/cm is an average, but by all accounts would be at the lower end (remember, multiple the pay rate by 2 to come up with the actual labor cost to the company, assuming even just $9 per hour, which I know they get more than that would result in $18/hr), so yes, my number is low.

As I said, I am not really looking to save money, that is a bonus as far as I am concerned, but I am not above using it to try to fix the problems that have arisen so far.

But, the other problem that I can foresee with spending $6,000 a day on this is that it is not sustainable in the long term. This works out to about 2.2 million dollars a year.

My fear is that if they leave the system in place as it stands now, chances are they will close some of the kiosks, for at least part of the time and reduce others to 1 person at any given time in order to save money, resulting in long waits and larger distances needing to be traveled to get a return time. This is another reason why I do try to look at what the costs would be when thinking about a solution to the issues.

Now, if the modified it to go to the kiosk or the attraction, that would help, but it certainly won't solve everything.
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Old 10-17-2013, 04:06 PM   #283
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Hey, I figure use the bottom line to get the system fixed and the number is actually low. On average right now, most kiosks seem to have 5-6 people at them. I am averaging 3.5 as the final number, a 12 hour day is on the low end, I am only using 8 Kiosks, when there are 10 during busier times and the cost to disney of $18/hr/cm is an average, but by all accounts would be at the lower end (remember, multiple the pay rate by 2 to come up with the actual labor cost to the company, assuming even just $9 per hour, which I know they get more than that would result in $18/hr), so yes, my number is low.

As I said, I am not really looking to save money, that is a bonus as far as I am concerned, but I am not above using it to try to fix the problems that have arisen so far.

But, the other problem that I can foresee with spending $6,000 a day on this is that it is not sustainable in the long term. This works out to about 2.2 million dollars a year.

My fear is that if they leave the system in place as it stands now, chances are they will close some of the kiosks, for at least part of the time and reduce others to 1 person at any given time in order to save money, resulting in long waits and larger distances needing to be traveled to get a return time. This is another reason why I do try to look at what the costs would be when thinking about a solution to the issues.

Now, if the modified it to go to the kiosk or the attraction, that would help, but it certainly won't solve everything.
Yes Disney listen when it comes to money but once they get it moving they can bring down labor. If they put a kiosk in each land that has attractions it might save them money. If they train all the cms in that land to work it which will be helpfully in how they handle them at each attraction. Then you can rotate them and might wind up using less or at least get better use out of them. When it very busy I think Disney will have to just but re bullet and put extra cms at each attraction and kiosk to ease the lines.

In Disney world when they came out with RFID turn styles they found they needed to put a guest service cms their to help. With people having problems with their tickets until they came out with a way to over ride the system. But they spent the extra money to keep them their for awhile so they will spend the money if they see a need or until they can come up with something better.


I know once RFID comes out to dl and is fully rolled out in wdw that would save money die to them being able to use computers so less cms. Now they can put your photo and return time on your ticket and the attraction cms can scan them at the fast pass plus line be able to see the photo and make sure the return time right. That way you won't have guest trying to write the return times them selves and using less cms for the system. Because they can use self service touch screens with maybe one to two cms when busy.
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Old 10-17-2013, 04:20 PM   #284
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I've been here since Saturday and half the kiosks only have one person (and thankfully only one, maybe two families ahead of me). The busier ones like the information boards, fantasy land, and paradise pier I've seen 2-3. It would be much better if they had one in each land. I wouldn't want to backtrack through critter country, frontier, or toon town.

Just counted on our card, we've only had 16 RTs and didn't make 3 of those.
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Old 10-17-2013, 04:29 PM   #285
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Of course it would be at each attraction, but these CMs are already there, hence the savings. (The Kiosks cost a minimum of $6,000 a day to run, that is assuming 3.5 CMs per kiosk, the .5 representing the one that is the runner to GR, relieves people for breaks, etc. with a modest cost of $18 per hour per CM, which accounts for pay, benefits, etc. and an average of 12 operating hours per day with a total of 8 kiosks. This doesn't count the additional kiosks added during busier times, electricity, the physical costs of the kiosks, etc.)

Basically it would be the first CM you speak with at each attraction or in other words, the one that tells you where to go and the time would be based off the current wait time. All they need to do is when you get in line, write down the time & date you entered the line, the current posted wait time and the time the card will next be valid at. One CM can write down all of this information when you get in line. This accounts for the time that you wait in that line automatically.

As I said, other local theme parks, Universal Studios Hollywood and Sea World San Diego in particular, started with Return Time passes and ran into a lot of the issues we are already seeing at Disneyland, so they moved to the system that I am suggesting.

Now, granted, neither park has a FP system, but both have a paid front of the line system. So, yes there would need to be something done about that portion. I am not saying that my system wouldn't have issues like this to be worked out, it would, but ultimately it would eliminate the issues that we have seen creep up so far.

Some of the issues with the current system are:
  • A lot of extra walking for people with disabilities. Yes, others can get return times, but at DL, many people come by themselves.
  • Kids that have disabilities to where they don't understand going to the attraction, but not riding and then coming back. (This is more at WDW)
  • What happens when the wait time would mean that the park will be closed before your return time? Someone else can still get in the standby line at this time, but those who need assistance cannot, making the system not equal. Bottom line is if the point is to make the waits equal, they need to be completely equal.
  • If you are unable to ride an attraction or no longer feel like riding that attraction, your wait time starts over, even if you have waited the entire length of the standby line.
  • The current system does not take into account the waiting you do once you get back to the attraction and at several attractions, that wait time could be longer than the standby line was, meaning you have to wait double the length of everyone else.
  • The current system is not preventing long backups in the accessible queues.

As to how I know it reduces abuse, there's the fact that these parks have said as much in conversations that I have had with their offices. Can you tell that I am one to take an active roll in getting what I need? But in this case, I was just letting them know how well the system worked out. But beyond that, when they used Return Times, I would wait substantially longer when returning, due to more people using the system than I do with the system they have in place now. And I have seen many other similar reports.

Universal Studios Hollywood has the most sophisticated system. There is a scanner when you first get in line, the CM scans the card, the display lights up green if you are good to go and red if you need to wait longer. If it turns red, it displays what time the pass will be valid at, the CM can choose to override it, if they think there is a reason to do so though, for example, I have seen it be a 5 minute difference for someone and the CM will override it. If the screen displays green, it will display what the next time the card will be valid at is. And yes, the standard practice at all parks, aside from Disney seems to be that when the wait is 20 minutes or less, they don't worry about it.

This system would naturally disperse those needing assistance, to where there shouldn't be long backups. If they found long backups on particular attractions were still happening, they could come up with alternatives for those.

Another option that may address many of these concerns is to offer a Smartphone App that can scan the QR code on the DAS and assign return times, eliminating the need to walk all the way to the attraction or kiosk. Of course they would need physical Kiosks that could do the same thing as well, but these could even be Kiosks that double up with the FP+ kiosks at WDW and ones that are unstaffed or have minimal staffing at DL.

But the point is, that there are indeed a few issues that are not being addressed by the current system at present. Perhaps there are tweaks that they can make to address these issues and still use the return times, or they can go to a system like the one I suggested, yes as pointed out, with FP available, they would need to make some tweaks to the concept, but it can be done.

Don't get me wrong, overall, I am glad that Disney is making a change, it has been needed for a very long time, all of us who need the assistance know this much. But there are issues that still need to be ironed out and these are issues that many of us could have told them would occur prior to the roll out, which means that they should have been able to figure out that these issues would occur and plan for how to combat them. But they didn't, which means, they either didn't think it through all the way or simply didn't care about these issues, which are actually a very big deal for many people. I am definitely not saying that they should go back to the GAC, I am all for waiting my fair turn, but I am also for complete equality to those who do not need assistance. This includes things like not needing to do extra walking. For those in ECVs, the extra distance is even more problematic, as there is limited battery power available and again if they are by themselves, then what do they do?

That being said, for the style in which I tour the parks, getting a return time pass doesn't affect me all that much, because I tend to do a ride that would have a return time, then a show, then maybe a ride that wouldn't have a return time, then maybe another one that does and at DL, chances are I would pass a kiosk somewhere after my initial return time. But there are issues that I take with the current system that need to be addressed in some manner. My solution addresses all of them, but I am sure it is not the only solution out there. My point when saying write to Disney is that we do get a say, express your concerns, point out what's not working and if you like my suggested method, please tell them. And no system is going to be perfect, but what I suggested was based off of my experiences at various parks.

Hopefully this makes sense, I have written it in bits and pieces when I get a break at work. So if something doesn't seem to flow, hopefully you can understand why.
I'm all for automating it more and cutting down on the amount of walking that is necessary, but I admit to being confused by your plan.

If I go to a ride that has a 30 minute wait, under the current DAS, I would wait 20 minutes, return, ride and then go to the next ride, which has say a 60 minute wait, with a return time for 50 minutes later.

Under your system, if I understand it correctly, I would go the first ride, have the CM mark me down for a 30 minute wait (current wait time), ride and then go to the next ride, where I would wait 20 or 25 minutes to board. But the second ride has a 60 minute wait, so I'm still not really waiting correctly for that ride.

As I said, maybe I misunderstood and you can help me understand.
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