DVC RESALES
DVC RESALES

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Old 06-03-2013, 09:15 AM   #31
dmunsil
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Originally Posted by Minniesgal View Post
The waitlist is nowhere near a year, we went on it in January adn were told 4-5 months and in reality it took 3.
Good to know! The only previous report I'd read was from someone who said they were "told" it was a year. Clearly it's not.
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Old 06-03-2013, 09:27 AM   #32
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Good to know! The only previous report I'd read was from someone who said they were "told" it was a year. Clearly it's not.
Things were different in January. That was before the huge direct price increase was announced at VGC (among others). That announcement caused a rush of people to add their names to the wait lists for points at the older price.

While that rush might well be over now, using January as an indicator of what the situation is like now is not valid. Heck, in January I bought VGC resale at $90/point in January, a loaded contract, and I had a choice of several at priced right around there.

Things have changed.
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Old 06-03-2013, 11:42 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Iceman93
I oversimplified it, sure, but psychologically that's pretty much how it works. Let's say somebody buys at Aulani. One year they decide they want to stay at the DLR. They try to get into the VGC but can't because of the 7-month window. So they can either pay to stay somewhere or use their points that they've already paid for. Since the points are paid for, using them to get a free hotel room at the DLH or PPH is a nice option that is not available to resale buyers.
Psychologically, yes. Financially, not even close. For the record, I originally suggested that the OP take a look at both direct and resale if staying at VGC was her main goal as I feel that is the one resort where buying direct has not had the value priced out of it. What I objected to were the bogus analyses and comparisons like saying that resale was the equivalent of a used car that could be a lemon or that using the points options for Disney hotels was free. Talk about the convenience, because that is a real benefit. But when you make it out to be something it's not, people coming on here for information can be misled.

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Originally Posted by BestDadEver

I get what your saying but people here are going to have a hard time with your use of the word "free" .
What are your thoughts? Do you have a hard time with it?
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Old 06-03-2013, 12:13 PM   #34
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Psychologically, yes. Financially, not even close. For the record, I originally suggested that the OP take a look at both direct and resale if staying at VGC was her main goal as I feel that is the one resort where buying direct has not had the value priced out of it. What I objected to were the bogus analyses and comparisons like saying that resale was the equivalent of a used car that could be a lemon or that using the points options for Disney hotels was free. Talk about the convenience, because that is a real benefit. But when you make it out to be something it's not, people coming on here for information can be misled.

What are your thoughts? Do you have a hard time with it?
No I don't have a hard time with it . Obviously it's not free . Unless you are past brake even . Then it's still not free cause of dues . But it's easy to see how it can be convinced as free when no money would need to be exchange at the point of sale .
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Old 06-03-2013, 12:51 PM   #35
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Since the points are paid for, using them to get a free hotel room at the DLH or PPH is a nice option that is not available to resale buyers.
Except that it is available to resale buyers; they can rent their points easily. Then they have cash they can use to book at Disneyland Hotel or any other hotel, with usually money left over for blinking Mickey hats and churros. They can book the cash room now and then rent the points later; it all nets out essentially the same.

So yes, the ability to instantly convert your points to hotel rooms or cruises without having to deal with rentals is worth something. Is it worth $40-50 per point? Man, that seems like a huge stretch.
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Old 06-03-2013, 01:03 PM   #36
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Except that it is available to resale buyers; they can rent their points easily. Then they have cash they can use to book at Disneyland Hotel or any other hotel, with usually money left over for blinking Mickey hats and churros. They can book the cash room now and then rent the points later; it all nets out essentially the same.

So yes, the ability to instantly convert your points to hotel rooms or cruises without having to deal with rentals is worth something. Is it worth $40-50 per point? Man, that seems like a huge stretch.
IF they can get their points rented, IF they didn't wait till the last minute, and IF they have points to rent at a resort someone wants for a decent price. That sounds like a headache to me when I can pick up the phone, call MS, pay $95, and get a room in the Disney collection, concierge or DCL. Hassle free, don't have to worry about a renter contract or them trashing the place. I am not in this to make money or analyze cost, I have paid off my dvc and I plan to enjoy it. The only people I let use it besides me is close friends I trust and I charge them nothing for it if I have extra points that I will not use because I am not trying to make money.
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Old 06-03-2013, 02:39 PM   #37
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No I don't have a hard time with it . Obviously it's not free . Unless you are past brake even . Then it's still not free cause of dues . But it's easy to see how it can be convinced as free when no money would need to be exchange at the point of sale .
This is what I don't understand. You are agreeing with the fact that it's not free. So why don't you have a hard time with someone saying that it is?

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IF they can get their points rented, IF they didn't wait till the last minute, and IF they have points to rent at a resort someone wants for a decent price. That sounds like a headache to me when I can pick up the phone, call MS, pay $95, and get a room in the Disney collection, concierge or DCL. Hassle free, don't have to worry about a renter contract or them trashing the place. I am not in this to make money or analyze cost, I have paid off my dvc and I plan to enjoy it.
With all due respect, you don't need to discredit someone else's point of view in order to make your point. Your "IFs" quite frankly are fallacious arguments. If one knows how to manage their contract then all of the things you fear have an infinitesimal chance of actually happening. You can simply say that you don't like the option of renting out your points, and that's fine, I can respect that. But your arguments against renting are way overblown to the point of being misleading.


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The only people I let use it besides me is close friends I trust and I charge them nothing for it if I have extra points that I will not use because I am not trying to make money.
I always find this interesting. The psychology of owning a timeshare is fascinating to me as some people seem willing to give it away. Would you pay for your friend's vacation if you didn't own a timeshare? Timeshares have a real cost. The cost of ownership is front loaded, so even if you have reached your "break even" point, you technically still have a cost basis in those remaining years. You simply paid it up front. You also have the annual maintenance fees. I find it so interesting that people would think it crazy to call up a friend and simply give them $1,000 cash, but they have no problem letting them stay in their timeshare at no charge because it's "free" or "paid for already". I think it's either incredibly generous or incredibly foolish, depending on how you look at it.
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Old 06-03-2013, 03:56 PM   #38
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This is what I don't understand. You are agreeing with the fact that it's not free. So why don't you have a hard time with someone saying that it is?

With all due respect, you don't need to discredit someone else's point of view in order to make your point. Your "IFs" quite frankly are fallacious arguments. If one knows how to manage their contract then all of the things you fear have an infinitesimal chance of actually happening. You can simply say that you don't like the option of renting out your points, and that's fine, I can respect that. But your arguments against renting are way overblown to the point of being misleading.

I always find this interesting. The psychology of owning a timeshare is fascinating to me as some people seem willing to give it away. Would you pay for your friend's vacation if you didn't own a timeshare? Timeshares have a real cost. The cost of ownership is front loaded, so even if you have reached your "break even" point, you technically still have a cost basis in those remaining years. You simply paid it up front. You also have the annual maintenance fees. I find it so interesting that people would think it crazy to call up a friend and simply give them $1,000 cash, but they have no problem letting them stay in their timeshare at no charge because it's "free" or "paid for already". I think it's either incredibly generous or incredibly foolish, depending on how you look at it.
My statements are overblown? That is so incredibly funny coming from you who puts down people decisions to buy direct every chance you can because you give the worst case scenarios of "what IF you get in financial distress and need to sell and you paid direct prices" or "it is financial suicide to finance a purchase like this unless it is your house or a car" is your argument. I simply state that renting points is tricky business if it isn't planned ahead of time. I never said people are FOOLISH or IRRESPONSIBLE for doing it, which is how you sound.
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Old 06-03-2013, 05:17 PM   #39
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My statements are overblown? That is so incredibly funny coming from you who puts down people decisions to buy direct every chance you can because you give the worst case scenarios of "what IF you get in financial distress and need to sell and you paid direct prices" or "it is financial suicide to finance a purchase like this unless it is your house or a car" is your argument. I simply state that renting points is tricky business if it isn't planned ahead of time. I never said people are FOOLISH or IRRESPONSIBLE for doing it, which is how you sound.
I am sorry that you have misinterpreted my posts to the point of feeling offended. If you read carefully, you will understand that I do not make judgments about people who choose to buy direct or buy direct and finance. I outline the pitfalls and potential problems, as well as the real costs, and trust people to make their own informed decisions. If you interpret that as my calling someone foolish or irresponsible, then that is solely your interpretation. I challenge you to find one post where I say anything close to that.

To that end, I would appreciate your not putting quotes around statements that I did not actually make, as I never said that financing a timeshare was financial suicide. With regards to the "what if" statements about having to sell, those are fact. It does happen, the only question is who is it going to happen to. The fact of the matter is that BLT, AKV and AUL purchases made direct right now experience a significant depreciation in cash value as soon as the 10 day recission period expires. That's a fact. If you buy direct and later find out that you no longer need the contract or that you can't afford the maintenance fees or monthly payments, you will lose money selling it. That's a fact. If you have a loan you will either have to come up with money in order to sell or you Disney will foreclose on the contract and you will lose everything you paid into it at that point. That's a fact. And apparently it's not something that we can point out to potential buyers without others getting offended. But if I have to choose between someone misinterpreting my posts and becoming offended and not providing the full picture to prospective buyers, I will choose the former. I would ask that you take a look at the following thread that outlines Disney's ROFR and foreclosure activity for the month of May:

http://disboards.com/showthread.php?t=3120471

As you'll see, in the month of may alone, FIFTY people had their contracts foreclosed on at BLT, AKV and SSR. That's fifty people that my information pertains directly to. The only problem is that we don't know who those people are going to be, and I highly doubt they went into the purchase saying "Oh boy, I bet this is going to blow up in my face in a few years and I'll probably end up defaulting on the loan". So I talk about the risks in as a matter of fact way as I possibly can. I apologize that you find that personally offensive or insulting.

Here's the deal. You're offended by the comments that I make pertaining to buying direct and financing. I get that. You probably chose to do that with your purchase and you feel like I'm attacking you directly. I get that as well. But I would like you to know that's simply not the case. Financing a direct DVC purchase is a risky move, and is not the most financially sound thing to do. But that doesn't mean that I'm telling you not to do it, and I certainly won't call you names if you do. I would ask that you please don't read anything into my statements other than what the words say. If I felt that you were a fool for financing a timeshare purchase, I would say that directly. But I don't. I simply feel that you are comfortable taking on more risk than I am, so that's how I state it.
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Old 06-03-2013, 05:25 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by ELMC View Post

This is what I don't understand. You are agreeing with the fact that it's not free. So why don't you have a hard time with someone saying that it is?

With all due respect, you don't need to discredit someone else's point of view in order to make your point. Your "IFs" quite frankly are fallacious arguments. If one knows how to manage their contract then all of the things you fear have an infinitesimal chance of actually happening. You can simply say that you don't like the option of renting out your points, and that's fine, I can respect that. But your arguments against renting are way overblown to the point of being misleading.

I always find this interesting. The psychology of owning a timeshare is fascinating to me as some people seem willing to give it away. Would you pay for your friend's vacation if you didn't own a timeshare? Timeshares have a real cost. The cost of ownership is front loaded, so even if you have reached your "break even" point, you technically still have a cost basis in those remaining years. You simply paid it up front. You also have the annual maintenance fees. I find it so interesting that people would think it crazy to call up a friend and simply give them $1,000 cash, but they have no problem letting them stay in their timeshare at no charge because it's "free" or "paid for already". I think it's either incredibly generous or incredibly foolish, depending on how you look at it.
Cause I assume people have little bit of common sense to figure it out .

As to renting it is very possible that you won't be able to find someone to rent from you for what you want . Depending on how soon you realize your not going to use your points.

Not really getting why it bothers you if people shear there timeshares . I am sure people all the time share/give things with friends with value all the time .
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Old 06-03-2013, 06:00 PM   #41
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Cause I assume people have little bit of common sense to figure it out .
Possibly. But I think it's just as likely that people will actually believe that their timeshare is free each year because they paid for it up front. Perhaps I am being too pessimistic.

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As to renting it is very possible that you won't be able to find someone to rent from you for what you want . Depending on how soon you realize your not going to use your points.
While I can see how you'd say this, I think that the problems with renting have been overblown. I closed on a June UY contract last year in mid May and had two weeks to rent out 100 points. I did so with no problem for $6 each, which more than covered the maintenance fees. With banking and borrowing, I don't think it's any more difficult to manage points for rentals as it is one's own personal vacations.


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Not really getting why it bothers you if people shear there timeshares . I am sure people all the time share/give things with friends with value all the time .
Good question. It really doesn't bother me per se. I just find it interesting how differently people view timeshares as opposed to their other assets. I agree with you in that I'm sure people share things of value with their friends all the time. I'll go out to an expensive meal with friends and think nothing of picking up the check, just to be nice.

But I think the most direct comparison would be vacations. I would no sooner give my timeshare away as I would call up a travel agent and offer to pay for my friend's vacation, even though they're essentially the same thing. But I think that there are many people who would do the former and not the latter. I just find it interesting the mentality that some people form with their timeshares, specifically pertaining to the thought process that it is "free" each year because it has been paid for at an earlier point in time.
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Old 06-03-2013, 07:18 PM   #42
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IF they can get their points rented, IF they didn't wait till the last minute, and IF they have points to rent at a resort someone wants for a decent price. That sounds like a headache to me when I can pick up the phone
Sure, yes. It's not nothing that you can trade in points for things quickly and easily. It's worth something.

In a sense, this is all a luxury purchase. It's like one group is saying, "My Rolex is fantastic! Look at the detail and workmanship!" And the other group is saying, "A Timex tells time just as well, and costs thousands of dollars less. Objectively, the Rolex is a bad bargain." Neither is wrong.

In this case, the specific issue is: is the ability to quickly change your points into hotel rooms and cruises (at a conversion rate that isn't great) worth around $40-50 per point? Some say it is, some say it isn't. I say it isn't to me.

For me, I wouldn't even get into DVC without the ability to rent. What happens when you don't want to go to a DVC resort OR an RCI resort OR a Disneyland hotel OR a cruise? Or if you can't go because of some emergency or conflict or financial distress? My answer is simple: I'll rent out my points. If I didn't have that option, I probably wouldn't buy into DVC at any price.

One thing about cash is that you can use it for anything. DVC points are like special cash that can only be used for Disney stuff. But given that in a pinch I can rent my points, that makes the whole transaction seem much less risky and it makes DVC points feel like owning a slightly illiquid security. Now that I can understand.

But the fact that lots of people buy into DVC and are very happy with their purchase, when they don't even know that point renting exists, suggests that lots of other people don't think like me. And that's perfectly OK.
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Old 06-03-2013, 07:25 PM   #43
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Can you explain how you get to $40-50 per point
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Old 06-03-2013, 07:44 PM   #44
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Can you explain how you get to $40-50 per point
I believe they're talking about the difference between direct and resale prices, not the price of actually renting points. Basically you have the same ability to use your points to make a cash reservation when you've bought direct, it just requires a call to David's to find someone to rent your points and pay cash. Skipping that step costs thousands of dollars. But if you're uncomfortable with that option, you don't have to use it. Different strokes.
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Old 06-03-2013, 07:56 PM   #45
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I just find it interesting how differently people view timeshares as opposed to their other assets. I agree with you in that I'm sure people share things of value with their friends all the time. I'll go out to an expensive meal with friends and think nothing of picking up the check, just to be nice.

But I think the most direct comparison would be vacations. I would no sooner give my timeshare away as I would call up a travel agent and offer to pay for my friend's vacation, even though they're essentially the same thing. But I think that there are many people who would do the former and not the latter. I just find it interesting the mentality that some people form with their timeshares, specifically pertaining to the thought process that it is "free" each year because it has been paid for at an earlier point in time.
I agree with you that from an economic viewpoint there's little difference, but I think being able to give someone a place to stay is a real tangible benefit. Part of the romance of buying a vacation home is that you will be able to magnanimously say to your friends and relatives, "Hey, why don't you use my condo in Vail next year - we can't use it and it'd be a shame to have it sit empty." It makes you feel good and them feel good, and that's part of the thing you're buying.

It's the same with a timeshare. The idea that other people can use it in the years that you can't is a selling point. Everyone wants to be the kind of person who can give away a valuable thing like a place to stay in a desirable location. Timeshares give everyone a chance to feel like they're a captain of industry with a vacation home in Florida.

So I totally get that. Somehow giving people money doesn't have the same romance. You wouldn't say, "Hey, why don't you stay in Vail next year - I'll give you enough cash to rent a nice condo while you're there." It feels a little weird.

What can I say? People aren't the kind of rational economic actors that they talk about in economics textbooks. This is exactly the kind of thing Kahnemann and Tversky wrote about in their books on behavioral economics. It's fascinating stuff.
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