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Old 02-11-2013, 06:25 AM   #31
chmurf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wilma-bride View Post
I read that as stating that, unless you are included in the examples above, if you are a non-resident you do not have to have a FL licence.
well ... partly correct

It states that if you are included in those examples, you DO need to get a FL license

It doesn't mean that if you are not included in those examples, you do not have to have a license that's valid in Florida

In other words, as a non resident, if you do engage in the activities mentionnend in that article, you DO need to get a FL license as any other form of permit will no longer be sufficient.

The other articles state that you do need a valid driver's license in Florida, and that a driver's license that's valid in florida is either a florida issued license, OR a license from another US state OR it is a foreign license accompanied by an IDP
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Old 02-11-2013, 06:33 AM   #32
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If you take the document in context and in order, Chapter 322.03 states that you must be licenced except as a non-resident unless you fall into the categories stated in Chapter 322.031 (a sub-chapter to 322.03 as indicated by the numbering). Chapter 322.04 deals with those exempt from obtaining a licence but, as a non-resident who does not fall into the categories contained in Chapter 322.031 you are already exempt from having to obtain a FL licence and thereby Chapter 322.04 does not apply anyway.

It is fairly simple really
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Old 02-11-2013, 07:03 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wilma-bride View Post
you are already exempt from having to obtain a FL licence and thereby Chapter 322.04 does not apply anyway.
ok, let me try another angle here.

What purpose does 322.04 serve then ?

322.04 is the article that exempts you from getting a FL license.

If not, how can the following item have any meaning or purpose ?

Quote:
(c)A nonresident who is at least 16 years of age operating a motor vehicle of the type for which a Class E driver license is required in this state if the nonresident has in his or her immediate possession:
1.A valid noncommercial driver license issued in his or her name from another state or territory of the United States; or
2.An International Driving Permit issued in his or her name in his or her country of residence and a valid license issued in that country.
If you read in context and order

322.03 : a driver must have A license (any kind of license as defined by the whole chapter 322)
322.031 : if the nonresident is engaged in the activities mentionned in the article, then it is mandatory to get a FL License within 30 days

if the non resident is not engaged in such activities, then 322.03 still applies : a driver must have a license in one of the forms provided by chapter 322


then 322.04 states that a non resident does not need to obtain a FL license if they can produce a national license and an IDP

I understant that somewhere between 322.031 and 322.04 it might be tempting to consider that 322.04 does not apply to us (non residents) but there is no reason to deduce that at all.

322.031 states the specific cases in which a non resident HAS TO get a FL License, but never does it states that this condition is final to the capacity of being exempted from getting a license. It's a step, not an end point.
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Old 02-11-2013, 07:10 AM   #34
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chmurf, we are clearly never going to agree on this. You do what you believe is necessary and I will do what I believe is necessary (which, at this stage, is nothing). As you have already stated that you need/have an IDP anyway, I am not entirely sure whether you are trying to convince me or others but, either way, people can read this thread, the information available and the other updates provided (e.g. from car hire companies' Ts&Cs) and make an informed decision for themselves.
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Old 02-11-2013, 07:27 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wilma-bride View Post
I am not entirely sure whether you are trying to convince me or others but
Let me put it in simple terms :
I prefer that this argument be held here, on the DIS, comfortably at home, rather than see a DISer have to "argue" about this before a US court/judge when they're charged with driving without a license.

I'm not trying to convince anyone, I'm just stating facts and official texts.
I wouldn't bother to write such long diatribes if I were not convinced (with a certain level of expertise) that these articles can be interpreted in such fashion that the IDP be required for non residents.
As you said, I have an IDP, and I could just let it go keep my mouth shut, so I'm either a troll or someone who genuinely wants to help.

My sole purpose is to state what seems obvious and legal to me, when I consider that some of us could be at risk encountering the odd cop who's had a bad day and who will give the poor unsuspecting Brit a ticket or a citation, that could ruin a day or a vacation.

Now let's agree to disagree and leave it at this. As you said DISers are educated enough to make their own decision


EDIT : in order for everyone to make up their own minds, here is the 2012 Bill Summary from the Florida Senate which sums up (in more clear terms than the statutes) the changes in the regulations

http://www.flsenate.gov/Committees/b.../2012/html/221 (effective Jan. 1st 2013)

here is what the summary says regarding our topic :

Quote:
Revises provisions exempting a nonresident from the requirement to obtain a driver license.
Specifically, international visitors are permitted to use an International Driving Permit (IDP) issued in his or her name by their country of residence to operate a motor vehicle of the type for which a Class E driver license is required. The person must be in immediate possession of both an IDP and a valid driver license issued in the persons country of residence.
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Last edited by chmurf; 02-11-2013 at 07:57 AM.
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Old 02-11-2013, 08:27 AM   #36
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£5.50 folks, probably not worth the risk, especially in (arguably) one if the most litigious nations on earth.

On a lighter note, almost all ADR's booked, just one more to go and got all our first choice times (just 2 were 10 mins later than requested) woop!
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Old 02-11-2013, 08:45 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magic Megadegs View Post
£5.50 folks, probably not worth the risk, especially in (arguably) one if the most litigious nations on earth.
£5.50, 25 mile round trip to the nearest PO (Leeds) that supply these documents and close the business for half a day while I go do it.

If this is something we have to get then they have to get the message across. As it stands now Car rental companies say we don't need it as far as they know but seeking clarification and Travel agents have no idea what we are talking about (nothing new there)
I estimate less than 1% of people who goto Florida read these forums, of those 1% maybe half will buy this permit. 99.5% will be going without it. It has to be made clearer by car rental companies and Travel companies IF we need it.
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Old 02-11-2013, 09:06 AM   #38
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From the AA website...with regards to driving in the USA...

J – IDP recommended as, in the event of an accident, some insurance companies will insist on seeing one. Additionally those licences which do not incorporate a photograph need to be accompanied by photographic proof of identity.

So, as far as I see, it's not compulsary at the present time, but could possibly have problems arise if, goodness forbid, any of our Dis'ers have an accident with another vehicle who holds insurance with a company who require them.

Also, my Mum would need one if she wished to drive, as she only currently holds an old-style UK licence. No photo-card.
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Old 02-11-2013, 09:12 AM   #39
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Here's my take on it...

If there has been a change in statute, the state, tourist board, car rental companies etc. have an obligation to ensure that people have the relevant information.

Laws don't change overnight. If there has been some sort of change, the it will have been in the pipeline for a while. Similar to when the smoking ban came in to effect, everyone knew months in advance that on a set date, the ban came into force. The fact that none of the car hire companies are not informing customers that they need an IDP, tells me that something is amiss here.

Let's look at this logically... it is NOT in the interests of Alamo, Dollar, Avis etc. for their customers to hire vehicles from them without adequate paperwork or invalidated insurance. If I (as a tourist) hire a car with one of these companies, and I am not legally driving or my insurance is invalid, any accident or problem I have isn't covered so neither is their car! The car is an asset to their business and they're going to want it repaired or replaced FAST! If the matter is tied up in insurance wrangles, that won't happen.

I think we need to wait and see what comes out from the car hire companies.
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Old 02-11-2013, 10:01 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wilma-bride View Post
If you take the document in context and in order, Chapter 322.03 states that you must be licenced except as a non-resident unless you fall into the categories stated in Chapter 322.031 (a sub-chapter to 322.03 as indicated by the numbering). Chapter 322.04 deals with those exempt from obtaining a licence but, as a non-resident who does not fall into the categories contained in Chapter 322.031 you are already exempt from having to obtain a FL licence and thereby Chapter 322.04 does not apply anyway.

It is fairly simple really
I spoke to the AA IDP dept. this morning and they have just got back to me after checking with their AAA counterparts and their US legal team. The net result of which is that they appear to agree with you.

I have requested confirmation in writing (by email) but it hasn't arrived yet.
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Old 02-11-2013, 10:55 AM   #41
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A reply Tim (I assume its Tim) from TripWheels has posted on Dibb. They are admitting its a pointless document but its now law

Elle has also blogged it on their website http://news.tripwheels.com/2013/02/1...d-for-florida/

I hope this answers all your questions (some of the old stuff, plus new stuff):

Customers that wish to drive in Florida without obtaining a Florida driver license will be required to have an International Driving Permit to accompany their out-of-country license. This applies to any vehicle, including rental vehicles. The International Driving Permit must be in the customer’s name and from their country of residence.

This is the information from the Florida Statutes:

322.04(c)(1)Persons exempt from obtaining driver license-

(c) A nonresident who is at least 16 years of age operating a motor vehicle of the type for which a Class E driver license is required in this state if the nonresident has in his or her immediate possession:

(2) An International Driving Permit issued in his or her name in his or her country of residence and a valid license issued in that country.

When did the law change, and why? January 1, 2013. The purpose of the permit is for the English translation. Obviously, a license issued in the UK is already written in English, so the permit is admittedly a little redundant but that is technically the law at this point.

What will happen to British drivers who drive without an IDP?
Without an IDP, a driver is therefore driving without a valid license and if stopped, law enforcement has the option of 1/ arresting the driver and taking him/her to jail 2/ giving the driver a citation with a mandatory court appearance.

Hope this helps,


Deputy Communications Director
Florida Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles
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Old 02-11-2013, 12:09 PM   #42
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As I previously stated that I would, I have now revised my position on this having received official correspondence and confirmation from the horse's mouth, so to speak. Based on information provided to me by the Florida Senate, I have revised my stance on this and will be ensuring that my DH gets an IDP before we travel to Florida in October.

Ms. ******,

In response to your information request: The primary mission of the Division of Revision and Legislative Information is to publish the Florida Statutes and to provide information about the legislative process upon request. The division cannot, by law, provide legal advice or statutory interpretation.

Florida Statute 322.04 is relevant to your query; see especially 322.04(1)(c)2. A hot link to that section follows:

http://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2012/322.04

You will need both an IDP and a UK drivers’ license.

I hope that you find this information useful.

David Murphy
Division of Law Revision and Legislative Information

I still think it is completely ludicrous that a law has been put in place which affects a huge number of visitors to Florida and it has not been properly cascaded to those people who need to know. It is hardly surprising that there is so much confusion amongst visitors
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Old 02-11-2013, 12:37 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wilma-bride View Post
As I previously stated that I would, I have now revised my position on this having received official correspondence and confirmation from the horse's mouth, so to speak. Based on information provided to me by the Florida Senate, I have revised my stance on this and will be ensuring that my DH gets an IDP before we travel to Florida in October.

Ms. ******,

In response to your information request: The primary mission of the Division of Revision and Legislative Information is to publish the Florida Statutes and to provide information about the legislative process upon request. The division cannot, by law, provide legal advice or statutory interpretation.

Florida Statute 322.04 is relevant to your query; see especially 322.04(1)(c)2. A hot link to that section follows:

http://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2012/322.04

You will need both an IDP and a UK drivers’ license.

I hope that you find this information useful.

David Murphy
Division of Law Revision and Legislative Information

I still think it is completely ludicrous that a law has been put in place which affects a huge number of visitors to Florida and it has not been properly cascaded to those people who need to know. It is hardly surprising that there is so much confusion amongst visitors
While I agree that the change has been poorly publicised it was fairly clear when I read it.
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Old 02-11-2013, 12:41 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wilma-bride View Post

I still think it is completely ludicrous that a law has been put in place which affects a huge number of visitors to Florida and it has not been properly cascaded to those people who need to know. It is hardly surprising that there is so much confusion amongst visitors
Now, here's a point we agree upon

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Old 02-11-2013, 12:59 PM   #45
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Places to get an IDP

The Post office - costs £5.50 can post date the start upto 3 months but not all branches.
Post Office - IDP

The RAC - costs £8 can post date start and takes upto 10 days
RAC - IDP

The AA - costs £8 can post date and as standard takes 10 days priority sevices offered.
The AA - IDP
Edit: the AA also require you send a C5 sized envelope (no stamps)

For all you need a passport sized photo.
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