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Old 01-24-2013, 02:37 PM   #196
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A word to those who feel they are being talked down to or that Disney is still fun, so what's the problem.


I can't speak for everyone, but the intention isn't to talk down to people, but rather to get everyone to understand and see what we see.

WDW isn't just a time and money sink. Walt Disney was a cultural icon the likes of which is unknown right now. There is literally no one in the US at least, probably the world who is comparable to Walt Disney. Steve Jobs probably came close, but he is not a Storyteller in the same way and so it isn't a perfect analogy.

The Disney Company was the life's work of this extraordinary person. Can the company ever be what it was under Walt? No, of course not. And not because of the institutional investors or similar outside influences, but because it is impossible to perfectly replicate the genius of a Renaissance man like Walt from the board room. But what Roy O., Card and Ron did try to do is to run the company using Walt's tools of storytelling. His SHOW, His QUALITY. Card was too rigid, Roy died and Ron was taken out by his own cousin in law. But they had a vision of Disney still being Walt's vision.

Eisner had no interest in that vision. He had none of the personal connection to the brand. To him, Disney was just a company.

And so of course, those of us that feel strongly about this can enjoy Disney. The Disney that was and often the Disney that is, but we can also discuss, educate, complain and argue about the Disney that should have been and why what we have now isn't good enough to be Walt's legacy.
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Old 01-24-2013, 03:01 PM   #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YoHo View Post
A word to those who feel they are being talked down to or that Disney is still fun, so what's the problem.


I can't speak for everyone, but the intention isn't to talk down to people, but rather to get everyone to understand and see what we see.


WDW isn't just a time and money sink. Walt Disney was a cultural icon the likes of which is unknown right now. There is literally no one in the US at least, probably the world who is comparable to Walt Disney. Steve Jobs probably came close, but he is not a Storyteller in the same way and so it isn't a perfect analogy.

The Disney Company was the life's work of this extraordinary person. Can the company ever be what it was under Walt? No, of course not. And not because of the institutional investors or similar outside influences, but because it is impossible to perfectly replicate the genius of a Renaissance man like Walt from the board room. But what Roy O., Card and Ron did try to do is to run the company using Walt's tools of storytelling. His SHOW, His QUALITY. Card was too rigid, Roy died and Ron was taken out by his own cousin in law. But they had a vision of Disney still being Walt's vision.

Eisner had no interest in that vision. He had none of the personal connection to the brand. To him, Disney was just a company.

And so of course, those of us that feel strongly about this can enjoy Disney. The Disney that was and often the Disney that is, but we can also discuss, educate, complain and argue about the Disney that should have been and why what we have now isn't good enough to be Walt's legacy.

No offense here. I enjoy reading these threads to get other perspectives. I understand that what we have now wouldn't be like it is if Walt would have lived longer and that someone would have been enough like him to continue along the same road.

I think that is what makes DL now is that we still have some classics that had his touch in and some that are newer touches. WDW, well we know that he wasn't around to get far enough into the "Florida Project". There is not telling what it would be like today. In fact, I think what "could" have happened if it was pursued after he passed. Who knows?

I understand where most everyone is coming from more than I probably lead on with these posts. I have touches of Disney around my house. From a room with black and white pics of Walt Disney by the Swiss Family Tree House to aerial views of DL in the 50s. Another room has a nice 1977 DL framed map (the year I was born!) And even a room with all my overflow from 50s to present, from DL and WDW.

So it's not like I am a casual Disney Parks lover, which some of you are the same way on here, but I know I am not the most hard core one either. It's all good, we think things should be different sometimes but they are not. I hope Disney keeps trying and trying to present the best they have to offer...............

And that's all...I am getting worn out in this thread, I think I am really.

Nice chatting with you all. See ya around the boards!
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Old 01-24-2013, 03:17 PM   #198
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I have not foraged into the Deluxe / Value portion of this thread until now but I would like to know what makes the design of a lodging (1) theme or (2) decoration? Oh, I know what the veteran group will say and in fact I generally agree. But where is the dictum, the rules, the playbook? If there is none who then gets to be the decider of right or wrong? Based on what?

My thought is that the theme of the Polynesian or Akl is palpable and quite real whereas the Values are generally iconic. Is this it? There are holes in that logic as well.

Lastly, I know there are people, families who visit WDW on a regular basis and stay at the Values rather than the deluxes NOT because that is what they can afford but because it is what they and their family prefer. It is what they find to be "Disney". These folks are certainly in a minority but what makes them "wrong" and in need of education on the subject? Further, let's assume the standard percentage of those folks are also well read on the life of Walt Disney's life, so they understand his beliefs to a defined degree. Are they just wrong because?

I will appreciate all comments and explanations although I am leaving shortly for Celebration and may not respond directly. Going to see Ron White at Hard Rock tomorrow night!
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Old 01-24-2013, 03:25 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by Peter Pirate 2 View Post
Lastly, I know there are people, families who visit WDW on a regular basis and stay at the Values rather than the deluxes NOT because that is what they can afford but because it is what they and their family prefer. It is what they find to be "Disney". These folks are certainly in a minority but what makes them "wrong" and in need of education on the subject? Further, let's assume the standard percentage of those folks are also well read on the life of Walt Disney's life, so they understand his beliefs to a defined degree. Are they just wrong because?
Exactly!
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Old 01-24-2013, 03:29 PM   #200
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WOW!! Miss a day - Miss a lot!!!!!

Been busy today, but I do have a few thoughts, although it goes back a page or two. Please bear with me, but I think I owe disneyworld1977 some sort of explanation. Seems like a very intelligent poster and one I would like to converse with!!

A little background first.

Dwaters asked if the Castle was decorations.

I said:
Quote:
Come on!! You really can t come up with anything better than that!? Are you really saying you don t know the difference between theme and decorations? Between ornaments and SHOW? A Disney SHOW? You need some basic Disney education then. Come back with something better please.
And then disneyworld1977 said:

Quote:
As far as the last comment in bold, you do come off as condescending with that statement. You have made some good arguments and insight to alot of things, but with that comment, don't think anyone will be hanging out with you at MK anytime soon.
And you would be missing the opportunity of a lifetime! NO ONE appreciates Disney like I do! I could show you things that you never knew existed. I could guide you through so that you’d never wait more than ten minutes in a line even in the most crowded times (Except Christmas!! Even I can’t get around the place being that crowded!!) And I could tell you stories about why things were done as they were done, and how they did what they did, and so on, etc. I can take you to little nooks and crannies with tales of why and wherefores, and the stories behind them. I could show you the PERFECT spot to see the fireworks or the parade or even Illuminations!

And the guided tour would be done with pixie dusted eyes and smiles on everybody’s faces!! And why is that? Because NO ONE enjoys Disney like I do!!

Hmmmmm. I suppose that sounds arrogant too!! But, it’s true!! I know an awful lot about the place and I ALWAYS have a wonderful time when I’m there. There is still enough of Walt’s “Magic” about the place!! And the current administration does do some ‘nice’ things every so often. Enough, at least, to keep me going back!

Do you find that hard to understand? That I could come on this Board and RANT & RAVE about the downfall of Disney yet have a wonderful 3-week vacation at OKW and LOVE every minute of it. You shouldn’t be. It is BECAUSE I have a love for Disney that I rant! It is BECAUSE I have a special appreciation for the way Walt did things that I rave! But that doesn’t spoil my good time when I’m there! (Unless I see the vacuums come out or painting going on during the day!! Then my blood pressure does go up a tad!!)

And now I would like to explain my comment to Dwaters. He asked if the castle was a decoration. Based on the two short sentences that came before that question I was pretty sure he was being sarcastic. Now I had a choice. I could ignore the post. Something that goes against my grain!! I could answer it legitimately and explain to him the differences between decorations and theme (at least a two page essay!!). Or I could treat it as a snide remark aimed at belittling my “Walt” logic and me personally. Maybe I was wrong, but I chose door #3 and answered him in kind. What do you think? Do I owe him an apology? I still don’t think so, but I’d like to hear your opinion.

I hope my little PIXIE DUSTED paragraphs help explain my split personality when it comes to Disney. I hope you can understand it. Every word of it is true!

And you bring up some interesting things in the rest of your post. I’ll be back shortly to see if I can intelligently answer some of them. Thanks for reading and hopefully understanding.
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Old 01-24-2013, 03:38 PM   #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Pirate 2 View Post
I have not foraged into the Deluxe / Value portion of this thread until now but I would like to know what makes the design of a lodging (1) theme or (2) decoration? Oh, I know what the veteran group will say and in fact I generally agree. But where is the dictum, the rules, the playbook? If there is none who then gets to be the decider of right or wrong? Based on what?

My thought is that the theme of the Polynesian or Akl is palpable and quite real whereas the Values are generally iconic. Is this it? There are holes in that logic as well.
I'm not sure that Iconic "themeing" is invalid. Afterall, the Worldshowcase uses Icons to establish place to great effect.

Themeing, as Disney uses it is a storytelling tool. It generally establishes an emotional connection to place and time using various cues both overt and subtle.

The Poly uses South Seas colors, materials and architecture (modified of course), names, music etc to establish an emotional connection with the guest. A connection for someone who may have never been to Polynesia.

Is Poly a perfect replica of a resort in the South Seas? no, but it doesn't need to be.

AKL in my opinion is adequate, but doesn't put in the effort to trigger those western emotional cues of what is african. Certainly it doesn't hit those cues the way the proposed African Village would have.

The Grand Californian has a similar problem. The art and Architecture of that hotel is incredible. I love it. The leaded glass lamps, the woodwork. It's neat, but...Arts&Crafts/Mission style is for bungalows, not 4 story atriums. the emotional cues are being attached to an inappropriate building.

For the Values, They really aren't trying to put you in any place emotionally. They aren't trying at storytelling. They're just decorating. There aren't any emotional cues. To use a Literary criticism, they tell you you're in a themed resort rather than showing you.
Quote:
Lastly, I know there are people, families who visit WDW on a regular basis and stay at the Values rather than the deluxes NOT because that is what they can afford but because it is what they and their family prefer. It is what they find to be "Disney". These folks are certainly in a minority but what makes them "wrong" and in need of education on the subject? Further, let's assume the standard percentage of those folks are also well read on the life of Walt Disney's life, so they understand his beliefs to a defined degree. Are they just wrong because?
Well, the snarky part of me would say, they aren't wrong. The Values are what Disney has become. What Eisner turned them into. If you want to experience Eisner's Disney. Stay at Pop Century. That is what Disney has become.

As to your actual point. Of course they are not wrong. This is entertainment and people are free to enjoy what they enjoy. And I certainly don't agree with their preference, but so what. And "need" an education? They don't NEED an education. I have no interest in ruining people's enjoyment.

HOWEVER, if you want to come post on a discussion board about how you think Michael Eisner saved Disney.
Well, that's a horse of a different color. You're entering into a larger world when you have that kind of discussion.
Once you start down that path, well, now we're discussing a far larger topic than what you personally enjoy. We're talking about what made Walt Disney and his company the global icon that he was and it became. There is a reason that Disney became what it became and the Values do not match with that Even if you think they are the greatest things ever, they do not fit in the Walt Disney mold.
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Old 01-24-2013, 04:39 PM   #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YoHo View Post
So now his focus was SHOW, not Quality. Got it.
In fact, it always was. Here's my direct quote from the original post:

Quote:
I think his larger impetus was delivering a quality product (which meant focusing on story, which, to his mind, enhanced quality more than most/any other facet of the show).
I re-iterated the emphasis in the subsequent post because you seemed to have missed it. Disney's product is "the show".

Quote:
But what is SHOW?
That largely depends on which specific thing we're discussing (movies, merchandise, attractions, etc). In specificity, it changes.

Walt considered them all the same thing, generally. All their own "shows".

NOT their own stories, mind you. And those are Walts words, not mine.

Quote:
You are actually misunderstanding what Storytelling is.
What Walt's SHOW was is just Storytelling. Walt's version of it. so we are still arguing at cross purposes here.
I'm talking about the grand human tradition of Storytelling. Cave Paintings, Music, Art, dance and you're discussing a word Walt used that is encompassed by Storytelling.
See, again, I disagree. The actual storytelling (the music, the art, the dance, a story, itself) + the presentation + the presenters + the method of presentation + the environment of the presentation + all the other factors involved that are fairly numerous...that's what makes the show. The sum total of all of it. The razzle and the dazzle, so to speak. The sizzle with the steak.

And Walts focus was to put on a quality show.

Quote:
When I say Walt was a Storyteller, perhaps the premier story teller of the 20th century. That encompasses so much more than movies or Theme parks or SHOW or Quality. Those are all a part of what made him the greatest Storyteller of the century.

Hopefully now we're not talking at cross purposes any more.
I don't think we were, or are.

You mention Lasseter and he's a good example of my point.

A GREAT storyteller.

A good, but not great, showman.

Now...I think it's time to agree to disagree.
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Old 01-24-2013, 04:43 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by YoHo View Post
I said event not routine. (which would encompass both apparatus and floor exercise)

So you did not get the analogy correct. To use your slightly more restrictive wording. They are performing different routines on the same Apparatus. HM's is a harder technical routine.

Of course we the judges are a subjective lot. And I know many that prefer Splash Mountain, but Technically, the routine is not as difficult. It's using an existing story and straightforward Story-boarding and plotting. It is just not as complex a routine.
Fair enough.

In that case, I just don't agree that the analogy is particularly apt or fair, all things considered.

Because you've created an environment where, essentially, nobody can compete on a level playing field.

But then, given the gymnastics analogy...maybe it's more apt than I initially thought.
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Old 01-24-2013, 04:45 PM   #204
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I guess we have to. At this point we are simply refusing to agree on definitions.

To me Storytelling is the root from which showmanship come from. You can't be a showman if you don't have a story to tell.
Disney was the premier storyteller, because of his Showmanship in large part. But showmanship is subservient to Storytelling.

Again, a cave painting is storytelling. A tribal dance is storytelling. One can be a bad showman and still be a storyteller. One cannot be a good showman without also being a good storyteller.
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Old 01-24-2013, 04:46 PM   #205
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The obvious solution, would be that they'd *gasp* have to upgrade their Deluxes to be worthy of their designation. Instead, they went the other way.
My turn to "Exactly".

That's my tangent in the discussion. If Disney would make their Deluxe hotels ACTUAL Deluxe hotels (in terms of service and amenities)...they could stratify differently.
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Old 01-24-2013, 04:48 PM   #206
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Fair enough.

In that case, I just don't agree that the analogy is particularly apt or fair, all things considered.

Because you've created an environment where, essentially, nobody can compete on a level playing field.

But then, given the gymnastics analogy...maybe it's more apt than I initially thought.
Why can't they compete on a level playing field?

Is it somehow impossible for Disney to build a Themepark attraction which utilizes current technology with themeing cues and proper storyboarding that utilizes a wholly original story and have it be executed perfectly?

I mean, it isn't possible in the literal sense, because Iger has explicitly dictated that all attractions must be synergistic, but that's an imposed limitation. Iger is afraid of the more technically challenging routine.
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Old 01-24-2013, 04:54 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by Peter Pirate 2 View Post
Lastly, I know there are people, families who visit WDW on a regular basis and stay at the Values rather than the deluxes NOT because that is what they can afford but because it is what they and their family prefer. It is what they find to be "Disney". These folks are certainly in a minority but what makes them "wrong" and in need of education on the subject? Further, let's assume the standard percentage of those folks are also well read on the life of Walt Disney's life, so they understand his beliefs to a defined degree. Are they just wrong because?
!
At least in my post, I tried to be very clear there are a subset who prefer the values.

And doing so doesn't make you wrong, or crass, or unworthy of being a Disney fan.

Different strokes for different folks.

You can certainly like decorations and you should not be "besmirched" for doing so.

BUT, again, that's not the point. It's a "would you rather" kind of debate.

I like chocolate cake. A lot.

I like chocolate cake with double fudge frosting, dusted with coconut, with black cherries in the middle MORE.

If you point to a chocolate cake and TELL ME it's got double fudge frosting, dusted with coconut, and black cherries in the middle...but I see no actual evidence that it does...it doesn't mean I don't like the chocolate cake you pointed to. It just makes me wonder why you're not being completely honest with me...and WHY you didn't add the double fudge frosting, dusted with coconut and black cherries in the middle. You clearly could have. You could have simply made the cake a bit smaller, with a little less coconut and fewer cherries, if your costs were an issue.

But I'll gladly eat your plain chocolate cake while I tell other people how I think it could be better.
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Old 01-24-2013, 05:00 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by YoHo View Post
I guess we have to. At this point we are simply refusing to agree on definitions.

To me Storytelling is the root from which showmanship come from. You can't be a showman if you don't have a story to tell.
Disney was the premier storyteller, because of his Showmanship in large part. But showmanship is subservient to Storytelling.

Again, a cave painting is storytelling. A tribal dance is storytelling. One can be a bad showman and still be a storyteller. One cannot be a good showman without also being a good storyteller.
I don't think we disagree on definitions.

I think we're having an endless "chicken/egg" type of discussion. This last post makes me pretty sure. And we'll just chase our tails til we drive everyone away if we continue. I'd hate to see that (seriously).

Easier to leave what we've written and let readers come to their own conclusion. I think we've both made cases we can stand behind...
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Old 01-24-2013, 05:05 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by YoHo View Post
Why can't they compete on a level playing field?
Because you rigged the game.

Quote:
Is it somehow impossible for Disney to build a Themepark attraction which utilizes current technology with themeing cues and proper storyboarding that utilizes a wholly original story and have it be executed perfectly?
And there it is.

WHY does it have to be all those things?

Because that's your subjective opinion of perfection. You're the East German judge.

And thus...rigged.

Again, using your gymnastics analogy:

The technical portion should be exactly the same for each subject...what they do, now what they use or specifically how they do it. The artistic portion would be how they do it (the movie tie ins, etc).

You're essentially combining gymnastics with HORSE. Not only do you have to do the triple off the high bar and stick the landing...you now have to do it with one arm tied behind your back while singing "Knockin' on Heavens door", showing perfect pitch.

Jordan vs Bird, for the french fries.

Quote:
I mean, it isn't possible in the literal sense, because Iger has explicitly dictated that all attractions must be synergistic, but that's an imposed limitation. Iger is afraid of the more technically challenging routine.
See, there we agree.
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Old 01-24-2013, 05:19 PM   #210
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WHY does it have to be all those things?
Because that is the objective Standard that Walt Disney set for the Pinnacle (E-Ticket) experiences and whether we say show or Storytelling, it is true.

Synergistic attractions are lower ticket values, a premier E-ticket attraction is not Synergistic.

The subjective part is I guess that Pirates and Haunted Mansion are the best, but if it's subjective, then it's backed up by the statistics. There is a high percentage of Disney Theme park guests that would consider Pirates and Haunted Mansion the best "Disney" attractions.

I mean, Pirates was so popular that Roy and Card changed Florida plans and dropped the Western River attraction and rushed in a version of Pirates, because people were asking about it.




But even given all that, yes, I prefaced the whole thing by stating that we're taking as a given that Pirates and Haunted Mansion are perfect...or as perfect an attraction as exists.
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