Scouting with the Dads

[Bo Duke]

Very cool. Sounds like a well oiled machine you have there. Our pack will be chartered for 50 years next July. (No one was aware of that either) We are chartered through our local American Legion so school shouldn't affect us too much other than (as far as i know) we haven't had a summer program for a while. I have heard this pack use to be close to 90 kids. Last year we were at about 22. So a major decline. We are up to 33 so far this year. I want to get us back up above 40 if we can. Then with that we would be able to afford to do more.

I asked our district rep if we would be able to accept donations from companies if they wanted and was told no. So that put a damper on some plans. They want us to do everything off of popcorn sales monies. Which again there isn't much enthusiasm for. So our fundraising efforts don't help at the moment. They seem to be a bit more excited so I hope we can get a better turn out for it.

Now you had mentioned you guys do rifle shooting. How do you get that approved. I was told the only time that kind of thing can be done is at the summer camp and then it is only bb guns and bow and arrows for the cubs. Just wondering.

Thank you for the ideas though. I am very grateful. I am taking notes..

[Bo Duke]

Originally Posted by stopher1

We are most definitely a camping Troop,

Ha ha missed that (even though you said troop several times in your post). That explains the shooting stuff.

[stopher1]

Originally Posted by Bo Duke

Ha ha missed that (even though you said troop several times in your post). That explains the shooting stuff.

Yes, quite true. There is a big difference between Pack & Troop... but I was sharing so that you see what kinds of things your boys might expect when they age through the program and cross over into the Boy Scouts.

Rifles & shotguns are definitely for 13+ boys. My boys did lots of bb's and archery in the Cubs as well. But not just there - my eldest loves archery so much, he earned his Archery Merit Badge during his 2nd week long Summer Camp trip with the Troop. My younger one hasn't done it yet, but wants to. We have our own bows, and a quiver of arrows, and they love to practice in the back yard. They have bb rifles too, and so we've got a bb range, in the yard. It's fun. I love doing that stuff with them.

Speaking of BB's - our Council (Crossroads of Amerca) is actually piloted a program this past summer that very well may be rolling out nationwide next year or the year after. Our Webelos Adventure Camp did away with bb's this year, and actually introduced Air Rifles instead. Indiana and Texas piloted it this year. The results aren't in just yet, but the word around town is that it will be going nationally soon. Now whether that means there will be an option for the Cubs to choose from, or if the air guns will just replace the bb's, I don't know... but it is interesting. Earlier in the spring, I actually helped build a new range at our local camp. The fence requirements are much different than for bb's. I helped build a new 48' x 10' fence.

[Bo Duke]

Originally Posted by stopher1

They have bb rifles too, and so we've got a bb range, in the yard. It's fun. I love doing that stuff with them.

Speaking of BB's - our Council (Crossroads of Amerca) is actually piloted a program this past summer that very well may be rolling out nationwide next year or the year after. Our Webelos Adventure Camp did away with bb's this year, and actually introduced Air Rifles instead. Indiana and Texas piloted it this year. The results aren't in just yet, but the word around town is that it will be going nationally soon. Now whether that means there will be an option for the Cubs to choose from, or if the air guns will just replace the bb's, I don't know... but it is interesting. Earlier in the spring, I actually helped build a new range at our local camp. The fence requirements are much different than for bb's. I helped build a new 48' x 10' fence.

I would love to let my boys shoot more often but we live in town so it isn't legal to shoot them or bows. Not to mention the school property meets up with our back yard. I need to look into finding somewhere to shoot around here. The only place i know we can go for sure is to my dads and that is an hour away. Something closer would be great. I grew up on a farm and we were always shooting bb guns and rifles. I miss it.

Now by air rifles. You have me a bit lost. Isn't a bb rifle an air rifle?

[Bo Duke]

Ok so as I said I have a lot of questions. So here is another one.

I asked our district rep about accepting donations. He said we can't because of tax issues. He told me that even though we are part of a non-profit org. we are not the organization and therefor can not collect donations because of tax issues.

My question is, have any of you heard this or handled donations. Just curious.

Thanks ahead of time.

[DisDadDoc]

Originally Posted by Bo Duke

Ok so as I said I have a lot of questions. So here is another one.

I asked our district rep about accepting donations. He said we can't because of tax issues. He told me that even though we are part of a non-profit org. we are not the organization and therefor can not collect donations because of tax issues.

My question is, have any of you heard this or handled donations. Just curious.

Thanks ahead of time.

I think that your district rep is probably both right and wrong about this. He's wrong that you can't accept tax deductable donations from donors. So, if someone wanted to make a big donation to your Pack (like maybe 5 tents for camping) and them try to deduct that later, they couldn't do it.

However, people donate things to Packs all the time. Leaders donate our time. I routinely buy snacks and supplies for my den (and so do the other leaders). People give us a dollar or two at Show N' Sells. You can't tell people that they can't help you out and no one expects to have these small donations be tax deductable. Maybe that's what he means. But maybe I'm wrong and there's a monetary limit that I'm not aware of. Please correct me if I'm wrong, Christopher!

As an aside, the District will also tell you that you can't break up the Microwave Popcorn Boxes at Show N Sells, too. But do it anyway when you're standing out in front of Walmart asking for support. Way easier to get someone to shell out $1 for a bag, then $16 for an 18 pack.

[stopher1]

Originally Posted by DisDadDoc

I think that your district rep is probably both right and wrong about this. He's wrong that you can't accept tax deductable donations from donors. So, if someone wanted to make a big donation to your Pack (like maybe 5 tents for camping) and them try to deduct that later, they couldn't do it.

However, people donate things to Packs all the time. Leaders donate our time. I routinely buy snacks and supplies for my den (and so do the other leaders). People give us a dollar or two at Show N' Sells. You can't tell people that they can't help you out and no one expects to have these small donations be tax deductable. Maybe that's what he means. But maybe I'm wrong and there's a monetary limit that I'm not aware of. Please correct me if I'm wrong, Christopher!

Chris is absolutely correct. When our boys were at the Pack level, Walmart and other places donated to the Pack all the time - hotdogs or buns, or bug juice, or other "stuff". Anything that lots of organizations would just write off anyway for one reason or another. Now financial donations, yes, that is completely a different story - and the District Rep is absolutely correct. Chris hit the nail on the head. With more than 20,000 Packs and Troops around the United States alone - that would be a logisitical nightmare. The only kind of cash contributions (or anything with a large cash value that someone might want to get a deduction for) can ONLY go to the national Boy Scouts of America organization.

[stopher1]

Originally Posted by Bo Duke

Now by air rifles. You have me a bit lost. Isn't a bb rifle an air rifle?

They are - but apparently they're not. There is a difference to them - but I can't tell you what it is. It was explained to us when we were getting ready to build the fence I spoke of - but that was back in April, and I've slept a little since then.

[Bo Duke]

Originally Posted by DisDadDoc

However, people donate things to Packs all the time. Leaders donate our time. I routinely buy snacks and supplies for my den (and so do the other leaders). People give us a dollar or two at Show N' Sells. You can't tell people that they can't help you out and no one expects to have these small donations be tax deductable. Maybe that's what he means. But maybe I'm wrong and there's a monetary limit that I'm not aware of.

I am not sure if there is a limit. He just told me that business's were making donations to packs and writing the donation off. Then when the companies would get audited they would get in trouble.

This came up because we would like to get a new pinewood derby track and I wondered if a local business (car dealership) could make a donation toward it. It was something i saw online somewhere saying that is how the pack paid for theirs. So that is how that came up.
Thanks for the response.

[DisDr.]

Originally Posted by Bo Duke

Ok so as I said I have a lot of questions. So here is another one.

I asked our district rep about accepting donations. He said we can't because of tax issues. He told me that even though we are part of a non-profit org. we are not the organization and therefor can not collect donations because of tax issues.

My question is, have any of you heard this or handled donations. Just curious.

Thanks ahead of time.

Could you just sell the busines X amout of popcorn?

[DisDr.]

Went back for the next den mtg...much better this go 'round.

3 dads, 4 moms and much more organized.
I managed to become Asst. Den Leader, and will be planning a campout, several meeting activities for electives and a bicycle rodeo.

Thanks for the pointers... will be using y'all for help PRN.

[AJRitz]

Originally Posted by stopher1

Chris is absolutely correct. When our boys were at the Pack level, Walmart and other places donated to the Pack all the time - hotdogs or buns, or bug juice, or other "stuff". Anything that lots of organizations would just write off anyway for one reason or another. Now financial donations, yes, that is completely a different story - and the District Rep is absolutely correct. Chris hit the nail on the head. With more than 20,000 Packs and Troops around the United States alone - that would be a logisitical nightmare. The only kind of cash contributions (or anything with a large cash value that someone might want to get a deduction for) can ONLY go to the national Boy Scouts of America organization.

Strictly speaking, from a legal perspective, this isn't necessarily the case. There are many, many, many national 501(c)(3) organizations that allow local chapters to take donations (both in cash and in-kind) under the national organization's tax ID number. There's nothing inappropriate or illegal about doing so. However, BSA has apparently made a decision at a national level not to allow local Packs/Troops to operate under their tax ID number and to require significant donations to be funneled through the BSA nationally. I have my own opinions about why they do this, but I'll keep those to myself here.

There IS a perfectly legal and viable way around this little problem. A sI understand it, each Pack/Troop has a sponsoring organization. Sponsoring organizations themselves are usually 501(c)(3) organizations in their own right (churches, fraternal orders, etc.). If a large gift can't be accepted by the Pack/Troop itself, many times the gift can be made to the sponsoring organization, dedicated for use by the Pack/Troop.

The only downside to that loophole is that if, for some reason, a Troop/Pack changes sponsors, any donated property would probably legally belong to the sponsoring organization and not the Pack/Troop. My own experience is that such separations are pretty rare, but that might not be true everywhere.

[Bo Duke]

Originally Posted by AJRitz

Strictly speaking, from a legal perspective, this isn't necessarily the case. There are many, many, many national 501(c)(3) organizations that allow local chapters to take donations (both in cash and in-kind) under the national organization's tax ID number. There's nothing inappropriate or illegal about doing so. However, BSA has apparently made a decision at a national level not to allow local Packs/Troops to operate under their tax ID number and to require significant donations to be funneled through the BSA nationally. I have my own opinions about why they do this, but I'll keep those to myself here.

There IS a perfectly legal and viable way around this little problem. A sI understand it, each Pack/Troop has a sponsoring organization. Sponsoring organizations themselves are usually 501(c)(3) organizations in their own right (churches, fraternal orders, etc.). If a large gift can't be accepted by the Pack/Troop itself, many times the gift can be made to the sponsoring organization, dedicated for use by the Pack/Troop.

The only downside to that loophole is that if, for some reason, a Troop/Pack changes sponsors, any donated property would probably legally belong to the sponsoring organization and not the Pack/Troop. My own experience is that such separations are pretty rare, but that might not be true everywhere.

Thanks for that information. Will definitely keep that in my back pocket, and if the need becomes necessary for use, i will have it.

[DisDr.]

Our Den trip to the firestation yesterday. The kids loved it and the firefighters put on a show for us with the water cannon. That thing has quite a range!

[stopher1]

Originally Posted by AJRitz

Strictly speaking, from a legal perspective, this isn't necessarily the case. There are many, many, many national 501(c)(3) organizations that allow local chapters to take donations (both in cash and in-kind) under the national organization's tax ID number. There's nothing inappropriate or illegal about doing so. However, BSA has apparently made a decision at a national level not to allow local Packs/Troops to operate under their tax ID number and to require significant donations to be funneled through the BSA nationally. I have my own opinions about why they do this, but I'll keep those to myself here.

There IS a perfectly legal and viable way around this little problem. A sI understand it, each Pack/Troop has a sponsoring organization. Sponsoring organizations themselves are usually 501(c)(3) organizations in their own right (churches, fraternal orders, etc.). If a large gift can't be accepted by the Pack/Troop itself, many times the gift can be made to the sponsoring organization, dedicated for use by the Pack/Troop.

The only downside to that loophole is that if, for some reason, a Troop/Pack changes sponsors, any donated property would probably legally belong to the sponsoring organization and not the Pack/Troop. My own experience is that such separations are pretty rare, but that might not be true everywhere.

Thanks Aaron for the extra info. You are correct - the BSA has made the determination that nothing goes to the individual Packs and Troops. And yes, you are absolutely correct about the ownership of goods if someone donates to the charter organizations - those belong to the CO. Separations are rare, but they do happen.