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Old 11-19-2010, 11:32 AM   #1051
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Originally Posted by WDW_lover_in_SC View Post
I believe Disney is more concerned about losing money from parents who don't want to bring their children around alcohol. Not the loss or gain of profit on the alcohol it's self.
I can understand that point of view, but those kids will grow up, and their parents grow older and tastes will likely mature and change. It'll be interesting to see how many of those folks' views will change when they desire to do something that benefits them more as adults. Suddenly they'll realize Disney caters less to them, and more towards the families with youngins who want big Booger Trees to play on (or eateries, or places to run up those credit card bills on toys).
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Old 11-19-2010, 11:38 AM   #1052
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I agree. My guess is that not only was attendance low, but there likely were some alcohol related incidents that Disney did not want to be liable for.

I don't really like DTD now that it's just mediocre restaurants & shopping. But not sure that "nightlife + alcohol + partying" was ever a good mix for Disney.

Remember we're talking about a place that people sue for pretty much any imaginable reason.

Or imagine the papers if someone got drunk, left and killed a family of 6 in a car crash, and they blamed PI drinking.

I realize a lot of people liked it, but maybe you need to look elsewhere for the parties & booze.
Ah, but guess what? Not everyone went there to booze up and act silly (or something worse). I went there and the majority of the time got a non-alcoholic drink. I was there to dance, or experience interactive entertainment (with family and/or friends). Can't blame this all on alcohol. I guess though, because it had alcohol folks automatically assume that's what people were and are clammoring for. It wasn't that for me...I loved the theming, the story behind the Island, the characters. That was sooo creative and fun, and now it's gone. Now, instead of going to one of the Clubs at night, my friends and I venture to a park to walk and talk, and/or eat offsite. More often then not, the evenings are not spent at Disney.
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Old 11-19-2010, 11:41 AM   #1053
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Originally Posted by Trinitys Ghost View Post
I can understand that point of view, but those kids will grow up, and their parents grow older and tastes will likely mature and change. It'll be interesting to see how many of those folks' views will change when they desire to do something that benefits them more as adults. Suddenly they'll realize Disney caters less to them, and more towards the families with youngins who want big Booger Trees to play on (or eateries, or places to run up those credit card bills on toys).
This is very true post. But as far as the business goes with Disney at DTD more demanders wanted people not getting as drunk and partying as much. So Disney supplied DTD with less alcohol and now people are demanding the clubs back. I'm sure Disney went through a lot of surveys and thought before making these changes. While they may not be as original they will probably make DTD more $ from first time visitors and ones like myself who LOVE DTD. (Of course being 21 I didn't have a problem with any of those clubs)
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Old 11-19-2010, 11:47 AM   #1054
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But...alcohol is still available on property, as is area for one to "get down and party" if they so choose (though it won't be in a Club venue). Disney merely shucked the responsibility, and chose to hand that over to 3rd party companies with restaurant ideas.

And I've no doubt Disney rigged the customer surveys. Anyone can rig a survey if they know how to word things to get a certain answer. And I'm sure they had their survey takers aim for certain folks who would get them the answers they sought, to "prove that's what their public wants".
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Old 11-19-2010, 11:53 AM   #1055
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I'm fairly certain almost everyone would jump for joy over the return of the AC even if it came back alcohol-free.


My guess is Disney wanted shops and restaurants that can generate revenue for most of the day as opposed to venues that are operating just at night and also probably felt it was more "stable" and easier to just basically collect rent for many locations as opposed to operating everything themselves. Obviously though, this is in direct conflict with customer sentiment.
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Old 11-19-2010, 12:20 PM   #1056
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trinitys Ghost View Post
But...alcohol is still available on property, as is area for one to "get down and party" if they so choose (though it won't be in a Club venue). Disney merely shucked the responsibility, and chose to hand that over to 3rd party companies with restaurant ideas.

And I've no doubt Disney rigged the customer surveys. Anyone can rig a survey if they know how to word things to get a certain answer. And I'm sure they had their survey takers aim for certain folks who would get them the answers they sought, to "prove that's what their public wants".
I agree but how many of these places do you have to pass through the way you did at DTD? To get from Marketplace shopping to West Side Shopping you have to cross through PI or walk around the outside or ride the water taxi. Most people will choose to walk through which was causing them to walk through a place they didn't want to be or didn't consider family appropriate.

Honestly its an endless debate both sides have valid points. I personally think Disney made the right move but I love DTD already so unless they ruined it big time I wouldn't have a problem with any of the changes they make.
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Old 11-19-2010, 12:21 PM   #1057
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I was under the impression that Disney was upset that NOT ENOUGH alcohol was being sold. That's really the driving force behind the profitability of a bar.
The entertainment at the Club must have been very expensive.

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Old 11-19-2010, 01:54 PM   #1058
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I'm sure Disney went through a lot of surveys and thought before making these changes
I seriously doubt it, at least not any objective surveys or other evaluations. The whole "too much alcohol/drunks/crime/liability around families with children" story just reeks of spin, and while there is some truth to the problem of Pleasure Island being in the way of shoppers with money to spend passing between the Marketplace and the West Side, that's hardly an insurmountable issue (build shops, etc. alongside and around the island, on the parking lot side).

Point remains that it is simply so much easier to play landlord - lease the empty former-club buildings out to whomever is foolish enough to pay the exorbitant rent prices - than it is to actually have to create and manage the operation yourself. Better to just sit back and collect your paycheck than take the risk involved in creating something - that always means the possibility of failure, and when the management team is already sorely lacking in creativity, talent, and imagination - an outdoor mall appears the safer solution.

That's just sad.
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Old 11-19-2010, 02:16 PM   #1059
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Originally Posted by DC7800 View Post
I seriously doubt it, at least not any objective surveys or other evaluations. The whole "too much alcohol/drunks/crime/liability around families with children" story just reeks of spin, and while there is some truth to the problem of Pleasure Island being in the way of shoppers with money to spend passing between the Marketplace and the West Side, that's hardly an insurmountable issue (build shops, etc. alongside and around the island, on the parking lot side).

Point remains that it is simply so much easier to play landlord - lease the empty former-club buildings out to whomever is foolish enough to pay the exorbitant rent prices - than it is to actually have to create and manage the operation yourself. Better to just sit back and collect your paycheck than take the risk involved in creating something - that always means the possibility of failure, and when the management team is already sorely lacking in creativity, talent, and imagination - an outdoor mall appears the safer solution.

That's just sad.
From a business standpoint though why would Disney invest such money AROUND an area that has seen a huge drop in it's guests when it can use this space and save money?

As unpopular as it is Disney is still a business there is innovative stuff all around the World (DW) so why would they worry about it in a spot that is probably the least visited on property? They have to have an ace in the hole somewhere and it just so happens its DTD. Disney will continue to profit from DTD no matter what thus leading them into the future with other innovative things in the places they belong like the parks.

Just my opinion. But I feel strongly about it when I say I think Disney made a good business move here.
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Old 11-19-2010, 03:38 PM   #1060
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The day they decided to make the island free to get on is the day the island died.

Disney has no problem making money off of alcohol. Since Pleasure Island closed I have worked bar at numerous events and Disney had no problem paying me to sell as much alcohol as people wanted and people had no problem throwing down $400 a table for alcohol. It's obscene the amount of money Disney makes off of alcohol.

My husband worked Pleasure Island full time and I occasionally picked up shifts there. There was never a problem with people getting too drunk or out of control. The only time either of us ever had a problem was when we worked New Year's Eve and from what I heard from other cast members that worked other venues for New Year's Eve, the problems at PI were no worse than elsewhere. There were never fights and security would have to deal with a drunk person only about once a month. This whole idea that Pleasure Island was a place for people to get wasted and cause problems for guests is a complete myth and nothing from my or my husband's time working there suggests otherwise.

As far as drunk driving goes, for guests on property there has always been free transportation. For most nearby hotels there is free transportation. There were always more than enough taxis. And guess what? If none of those option worked for you, AAA offered complimentary transportation home to anyone who was drunk leaving PI. Drunk driving wasn't an issue during all the years that PI was open, I think it's stupid to play hypotheticals and say the shut it down because in the future someone might drive drunk. While we're at it someone could get drunk at T-Rex, drive home and get in an accident and then Disney would have no choice but to close down all the restaurants that serve alcohol at DTD, right? Disney is a business, bottom line, and alcohol sales bring in a good amount of money for them. Alcohol has nothing to do with PI shutting down. AC being the only club that was consistently busy is why PI shut down. When business started slipping there were no advocates for going back to the way things were in upper management so they decided to close it and go in a different direction.

Bottom line, when they stopped charging admission to get on the island and stopped the New Year's Eve every night is when things started going downhill. That business model worked for them and the new one didn't. When Saratoga Springs went in they decided to do away with the fireworks because of complaints from guests that were staying there. When that change was implemented they could then open up the island to people walking through because there was no longer a hard ticket event going on.

I do hope they bring back AC, it was a consistent money maker and I don't see how it would conflict with the theme and atmosphere that they're putting in. Oh, and the entertainment at AC was not too expensive. Proof? Most of the CMs who worked AC are still working at Disney and their contracts won't allow for them to have taken a pay cut. What is expensive is the street entertainment that they hire. I have a friend who's a musician and he gets paid more for one night than most CMs make in a week because he's an independent contractor. So they're paying him more than CMs and not charging guests to hear him play. Entertainment costs are not what killed AC.
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Old 11-19-2010, 03:52 PM   #1061
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WDW_lover_in_SC View Post
I believe Disney is more concerned about losing money from parents who don't want to bring their children around alcohol. Not the loss or gain of profit on the alcohol it's self.
Parents who don't want to bring their children around alcohol would have to stick to the Magic Kingdom, as alcohol is sold everywhere else on WDW property.

There will be bars at Hyperion Wharf. But Disney will not have to manage or staff them.

Quote:
As unpopular as it is Disney is still a business there is innovative stuff all around the World (DW) so why would they worry about it in a spot that is probably the least visited on property?
Either DTD is more popular without clubs, or it's not popular and Disney shouldn't feel any need to innovate there, because it's not popular enough. I'm not willing to give Disney a copout to say they only need to worry about innovation in the parks because the parks are all that count.

I used to have a better time at AC than I'd have in the parks.
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Old 11-19-2010, 04:10 PM   #1062
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The day they decided to make the island free to get on is the day the island died.
Totally this...I've mentioned this before that when they decoupled PI as a whole and started accounting income to each individual club, expensive-to-operate locations like AC and CW, even if they showed a profit (and I heard that AC did), the margin on it was low enough that the suits would think they could get a better margin with the space.

And there is no reason why the AC couldn't come back WITH a bar. They've got outside bars and a tequila bar, for cripes sake. Frankly, Epcot during Food and Wine is probably a bigger issue.

At this point though, I'd like to see the AC in any of the rumored configurations...
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Old 11-19-2010, 06:54 PM   #1063
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I think Disney made a good business move here.
Absolutely correct! That, indeed, is exactly the problem.

The reputation and overwhelming success of the Walt Disney Company has been built on a legacy of consistently excellent business moves - and frequently, simply brilliant business moves (like the original Epcot Center). Many people can construct a (good business strategy) outdoor shopping mall. For a resort with Disney's reputation and which commands premium prices we should reasonably expect better, like perhaps for Disney to maintain its own previously established standards.

Downtown Disney - from back before Pleasure Island even existed and it was the Walt Disney World Village - was and should be more than just another shopping center. Innovation and show have never stopped at the borders of the theme parks before; It's the Walt Disney World Resort (Vacation Kingdom). not just a collection of isolated theme parks. Why should it be acceptable for Disney to rest on its past success, not even try to create or innovate, and settle for just "good" when the company used to be better than that?

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From a business standpoint though why would Disney invest such money AROUND an area that has seen a huge drop in it's guests when it can use this space and save money?
I have never seen or heard anything to suggest the Marketplace has seen a "huge drop in its guests", so I'd really be curious to know your source for this. Indeed, judging by the masses which descend upon the place, it looks to be pretty successful (and profitable). Do we really need to ask why Disney would want to build upon its success?

Instead, replacing the abandoned P.I. clubs with rented-out shops and restaurants will indeed save money - it's the cheap and lazy solution. While it will surely be a success, and even reasonably well executed, it doesn't appear it will be a particularly unique experience - the sort of thing you can only find at Walt Disney World. It is those unique, creative or innovative, and "magical" resort-wide experiences which lead people to spend big bucks to visit WDW.

Quote:
innovative things in the places they belong like the parks
Innovative (creative, imaginative, etc.) experiences do not just belong in the parks. Again, it is the Walt Disney World Resort, not just a collection of theme parks.
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Old 11-19-2010, 08:06 PM   #1064
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Originally Posted by WDW_lover_in_SC View Post
Just my opinion. But I feel strongly about it when I say I think Disney made a good business move here.
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Absolutely correct! That, indeed, is exactly the problem.
Huh? Am I missing something here? Perhaps I'm not grasping what you two are saying..

My family now visits WDW less than before because the AC is gone. That means less hotel nights at the the Poly and GF (although I'm a DVC Member I used to grab a few nights at those hotels), less money spent at the Disney restaurants which we always eat signature, downgrading from Premium AP, less time in the stores, and yes, no cash spent at the AC or CW.
I'm sure there are many in the same situation. How is that a smart business move?

And why is it a good business move to get rid of one of the best imagineered experiences ever created, which is truly at the core of Disney's success?
I think the explanation was something like "There is other good stuff around WDW"? You must be kidding.. Does that mean Disney could justify getting rid of any E ticket attraction because there are other E ticket attractions in other parks?

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Old 11-19-2010, 08:39 PM   #1065
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How is that a smart business move?
It isn't, of course. My point was that for a company known for exceptional and even downright brilliant creativity and innovation (with the resulting payoff in business), why should WDW lower themselves to create something which is only a good business move. The real problem with Walt Disney World is that the company has been aiming for mediocrity for a long time now, doing something just good enough instead of the exceptional or even brilliantly creative projects which the company was once known for.

So, when it is said this is as good business move I agree, but again, only because that's exactly what's wrong with Disney. Based on their own traditional standards (which they haven't consistently met in a long time), and the fact that Disney is at least priced as a premium product, I don't expect WDW to lower itself to meeting a good standard. We should expect exceptional and brilliant projects, such as that which established the original Epcot Center and - perhaps - Pleasure Island and (at least) the Adventurers Club itself. If you want to debate the relative success of P.I. go ahead and state your case, but that in no way detracts from the fact that Disney created something innovative and creative - not just another shopping center which was just good enough.
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