DVC RESALES
DVC RESALES

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Old 04-08-2013, 04:21 AM   #31
Missyrose
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lil' Grumpy View Post
hi d.bub !

you are not alone & we have similar circumstances in that we
brought 3 blt contracts for our children too.

yes, i think dvc need to progress with specific rules to balance
the differences in the home resort....& they need to address
some other issues they have been ignoring , like renting.

most chose a side like pro vs con....but i think dvc simply
are trying to be neutral. in the beginning with dvc being a
smaller club with just a few resorts ...that work but now &
the growing numbers should be getting some attention.
that and decrease sales & the % renting vs their cash
resorts.

for ex. , if you was a ssr or okw owner, then the problem
you encountered with cancelling wouldn't have the same
negative outcome. i know we never plan on ever using our
blt points @ those resorts. has nothing to do with
the resorts but location..& the fact we go to disney to
do the parks.

quality assurance should include provisions that benefit all
owners over renters & any trade in. also there need to be
a limiting of the "perks" from owners working inside.

they don't need a complete set of restrictions, liked
separating resales vs direct...just tweaking the system
to address each resort with their owners' needs. so it
could accomplished both "groups"~ to keep the attractions
strong. to me , it 's common sense how they can
work around the 2 main groups....direct /resales with
parks perks. why they are not is puzzling.

some mentioned legal issues...on what they can /can't
do.... but dvc isn't a standard timeshares & dvc options
are endless-- on what they could do for direct over resales...
everything from bonus fast passes, to special dinning
rules, to whatever .....none will effect resales except
push those that can afford it ,toward direct.

nothing prefect, but the thing you mentioned above is
why we chose a sept uy, giving us the best chance @
our home resort if we had to cx..( based on the trends
i read here). so far we've been lucky. but i don't like
relying on luck.

also with the directions they have been going, i can see
dvc breaking away from trading with rci esp. since
they have parks around the world. as for "pure" dvc owners,
i haven't seen any thing good....just a wasted benefit
to us that cost us more in dues.

like in your situation , i think a family death should have
given you the right to relocated a renter or a trader ,
to okw & your family to your home resort.
I understand why Disney greatly dislikes people who buy resale because every contract bought via resale is another potential sale Disney has lost. What I don't understand is your personal animosity toward people who bought resale. You act as if we are defacing the DVC brand every time we use our points. You do realize that people who bought directly from Disney rent their points out too, right?

Is it a money thing? Because I know for a fact that some people who bought BLT contracts through Disney early on paid less than I did via resale last year. Should those people see their perks taken away and their use of their points limited too?

I guess I just will never understand why your DVC complaints always seem to conflate people who bought resale and renters. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other.
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Old 04-08-2013, 08:43 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lil' Grumpy View Post
hi d.bub !

you are not alone & we have similar circumstances in that we
brought 3 blt contracts for our children too.

like in your situation , i think a family death should have
given you the right to relocated a renter or a trader ,
to okw & your family to your home resort.
Thanks for the thought. That last paragraph would be nice but we know the rules and they apply to everybody.

We are direct buyers but also have some resale points and really like that we have noticed no difference in the way we use them. Our resale points were purchased after the deadline and are "restricted" but since we don't ever intend to use them that way they work seamlessly with our direct points.

My negative was because you have to plan so far in advance, the anticipation and excitement builds. You make plans and dining reservations and then the bottom drops out. But that can happen to anyone.

I guess I would agree that it does bother me a little bit that most of my BLT points were spent elsewhere.........but we ended up in a 1br at OKW for a week and enjoyed it immensely.
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Old 04-08-2013, 10:19 AM   #33
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I don't think Disney should care too much if you are getting a direct vs resale. They have ROFR if they think the points are going for too low. BTW, does that mean they then buy the points from the seller? So the seller wins regardless if that is true. As a PP mentioned a huge added cost is food and tickets so whether you buy direct or resale you are still spending money at Disney! As for the renters, I've wondered why Disney allows it as the cost is significantly cheaper to rent from a DVC owner than direct from Disney. BUT again, those people are spending money on food, tickets, etc. and it could be a way to check out the DVC prior to buying. Also how would Disney know that the people are renting vs an owner's extended family or friends? if you limit who stays in the room to just the owner that will affect everyone. I do think that the rules in general should be the same regardless of how you purchase your points. Resale allows owners a way out if DVC becomes too expensive for them or their lifestyle changes. It is also a way for more people to purchase DVC without breaking the bank. It would be nice if Disney hadn't changed the rules for direct vs resale as to the collections you could use but at this point not that huge of a deal for me and certainly not enough to pay double for points. I doubt I would ever use DVC points for a cruise but possibly would have considered using for one of the resort hotels (namely the Polynesian).
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Old 04-08-2013, 10:29 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Docmom View Post
I don't think Disney should care too much if you are getting a direct vs resale.
In their eyes, every buyer who purchases resale is a lost direct sale.

There may be limits to the restrictions they can put into place without damaging the product--i.e. if potential customers discover that it's exceedingly difficult to re-sell the points, some will choose not to buy in the first place. And certain restrictions could run the risk of costly (and potentially embarrassing) legal challenge.

But Disney has to maintain a steady flow of direct sales in order for the product to remain viable.

Quote:
As a PP mentioned a huge added cost is food and tickets so whether you buy direct or resale you are still spending money at Disney!
Big picture, that is true. However Disney Vacation Club / Disney Vacation Development is evaluated on its ability to sell timeshares--not as a vehicle for selling park admission and souvenirs.

Imagine you are the head of HP's printer division. Your performance is judged solely on your ability to sell printers.

Some people will buy your printers second-hand from eBay and still have to purchase the ink cartridges, but that doesn't have any impact on your own performance as a printer sales division. Resales may benefit HP's bottom line but they don't get you closer to making your own goal. In fact, to carry through the analogy, every buyer who purchases a printer off eBay is a potential lost sale for YOU. It puts you further from accomplishing YOUR assigned goal.

Every DVC contract is owned by SOMEONE who will--in theory--also spend money on food, tickets, etc. Ideally, DVC wants to keep all of its current customers as owners and still sell MORE points. They don't want to make it easy for current owners to sell their points to prospects.

Quote:
As for the renters, I've wondered why Disney allows it as the cost is significantly cheaper to rent from a DVC owner than direct from Disney.
Legally Disney cannot stop renting.

They have tried to make it difficult for so-called "professional" renters to do business, but even the term "professional" is vaguely defined. It's also a label which may not stand up to legal challenge.
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Old 04-08-2013, 11:48 AM   #35
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I don't know why ANY owner would want restrictions on the points (resale or renter). It just devalues their leased property

I imagine after 15-20 years of Disney vacations, we'd probably want to move on and sell...would be nice if it could be a decent down payment on my future Porsche

I hope Disney props up the values for a long long time.
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Old 04-08-2013, 11:51 AM   #36
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@ docmom

We are currently waiting on the ROFR process and are first time buyers like yourself so I thought that I could put in my two cents.

We purchased at SSR because IMO it's the best value via resale (low price per point and low/relatively stable maintenance fees). You will see "buy where you want to stay" alot in this forum... while I respect this advice, in our situation we felt that our personal preferences will change over time (e.g. - we might want BCV while our kids are little but in 20 years may prefer BLT) which made it more important to find the best overall value. Note that we toured SSR during our DVC tour and loved it so we would be more than happy to stay at SSR if one of our waitlists didn't come through... we wouldn't purchase somewhere where we would be unhappy to stay. Also, we bought a smallish contract so that if/when addonitis hits and if there is a particular resort that we HAVE to stay at year after year, it wouldn't break the bank to buy another contract there.

While tempted by the DVC pitch, the resale route was the best option for us. The resale restrictions (cruises, adventures by Disney and the Disney Collection) didn't impact us as the point conversations were so unfavourable that we would never have booked any of the cruises/adventures/Disney Collection through DVC. At $135-$165 PP through Disney vs $60 PP resale, it was a no-brainer for us.
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Old 04-08-2013, 12:10 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Apps View Post
I don't know why ANY owner would want restrictions on the points (resale or renter). It just devalues their leased property
If you are an owner who chooses to use the options which are banned from resale, it works to your advantage. About 2.5 years ago there were widespread reports of DVC owners no longer being able to book Disney Cruises on points because members had reached some overall cap on the number of available cabins. Now that a growing number of owners are blocked from that option (resale buyers after March '11) those who bought direct have greater odds of getting their desired cabin.

(And yes, I realize cruising on points isn't the greatest value but that's a different debate altogether. Members DO book cruises on points.)

With any restrictions--current or future--there will be haves and have-nots. The haves will benefit from program changes while the have-nots will be placed at a disadvantage.

Right now the resale limitations are pretty modest. And discussing future limitations is dicey because we don't know what form they would take...or if other limitations will even materialize.

Getting back to your comment, the question is how much resale values would actually suffer from current/future limitations and whether or not it's a worthwhile trade off for the benefits received.

Do you really think prices are lower today than they would otherwise be if DVC had not barred resale buyers from Disney Cruises, Adventures by Disney, etc? (Judging by the feedback from those who still choose to buy resale, I don't think it's had much--if any--impact on prices.)
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Old 04-08-2013, 01:55 PM   #38
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Bisney, that's where we're at in our thinking too. Congratulations on your pending purchase!

Tim, I realize DVC wants to sell their products direct but at some point they either won't have inventory (unless they continue building) or have to rely on resales which would help owners in theory. I don't think they can do too much to limit the benefits of resale purchasers because ultimately it will affect direct buyers too. I certainly would think twice about purchasing if there were no reasonable out. Imagine buying a house you could never sell...yikes!

New question about cruises and DVC. I know there are DVC cruises. Are those just for direct buyers or for any DVC owner?

Last edited by Docmom; 04-08-2013 at 02:06 PM.
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Old 04-08-2013, 02:04 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjkraz View Post
Do you really think prices are lower today than they would otherwise be if DVC had not barred resale buyers from Disney Cruises, Adventures by Disney, etc? (Judging by the feedback from those who still choose to buy resale, I don't think it's had much--if any--impact on prices.)
As a resale purchaser, those restrictions had no impact on my decision to buy resale vrs direct. I personally think those restrictions had no effect on the resale price.
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Old 04-08-2013, 02:07 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bisney View Post
...You will see "buy where you want to stay" alot in this forum... while I respect this advice, in our situation we felt that our personal preferences will change over time (e.g. - we might want BCV while our kids are little but in 20 years may prefer BLT) which made it more important to find the best overall value. Note that we toured SSR during our DVC tour and loved it so we would be more than happy to stay at SSR if one of our waitlists didn't come through... we wouldn't purchase somewhere where we would be unhappy to stay. ....
Buy where you want to stay is still important. But like you have already learned, buy where you won't mind staying if you can't get anything else at seven months out. If you always want a GV, you have to buy somewhere that has GVs. If you always want the theme park view at BLT, you really need to own there. You really shouldn't buy somewhere just for the price if you never want to stay there for any reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DougEMG
As a resale purchaser, those restrictions had no impact on my decision to buy resale vrs direct. I personally think those restrictions had no effect on the resale price.
Didn't have any impact on me who has two direct and one resale purchased about 2000. I learned if I want to vacation elsewhere, I use other means to do that, not DVC.
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Old 04-08-2013, 02:17 PM   #41
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@ docmom

Thanks! But until we get through ROFR, we're cautiously optimistic. I would highly recommend the Timeshare Store, they have been great to work with.

@ Tim/Doug

The current resale restrictions had no impact on our decision to buy/price. If however, they were stricter (e.g. - limiting where you can stay to your home resort, etc), then that would definitely be factored into DVC's appeal and it's value to us. To tell you the truth it was the recent sales/ROFR activity that drove our price. We chose what we felt was the lowest amount per point that we felt had a good chance of getting through the ROFR based on recent (last two weeks) worth of activity per information provided by two different brokers. We isolated our ideal use year and amount of points plus/minus a month and 15 points and found that there was only 1 listing available and luckily for us they accepted our price. Now it's a waiting game.

@ Deb

Oh I agree completely that the home resort is very important. Luckily, DVC provides so many fantastic options that we'd be quite content anywhere. Like I was saying, if in the future there was one particular resort that we felt like we HAD to stay in order to be happy, we would buy there but for us that's not the case. Our thought was "buy at the most economical place where we wouldn't mind staying" so that if our waitlist doesn't work out, we'd be more than happy. Some people love staying at one place and that's great for them... for us, we like trying out different places which makes SSR's low dues and low PP buy-in very appealing.

Last edited by bisney; 04-08-2013 at 02:28 PM.
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Old 04-08-2013, 02:39 PM   #42
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As a resale purchaser, those restrictions had no impact on my decision to buy resale vrs direct. I personally think those restrictions had no effect on the resale price.
I believe it had to have some effect on resale or it affected direct sales. I say this because now people are more hesitant to go resale as they are afraid more restrictions may be coming. Imagine if no restrictions had ever been placed on resale. The net effect would be that everyone would go to the resale market and wouldn't care about direct because they would provide the exact same benefit. The threat of restrictions had to have some effect on the market be it lower resale or higher direct pricing.
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Old 04-08-2013, 02:46 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Docmom View Post

Tim, I realize DVC wants to sell their products direct but at some point they either won't have inventory (unless they continue building) or have to rely on resales which would help owners in theory.
I think you're missing one important way Disney gains points to sell. Every month Disney gets back thousands of points from people who simply want to walk away from their contracts because of financial issues and also via foreclosure on people who have stopped making their loan payments. This category of contracts far outnumbers how many contracts Disney gets back via ROFR ( and more importantly for Disney, these contracts cost them nothing to reacquire).
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Old 04-08-2013, 02:57 PM   #44
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Tim, I realize DVC wants to sell their products direct but at some point they either won't have inventory (unless they continue building) or have to rely on resales which would help owners in theory.
As long as there is a market, they will continue to build new.

Bay Lake Tower was publicly acknowledged to have cost $140M to build. It represents about 5.6 million points. If you do the math, that's about $25 per point to build.

It makes no sense for DVC to actively pursue ROFRs at $50-60 per point and sell for $130 when they can build for $25 and sell for $165. If land were at a premium, that would be a different story. But WDW still has plenty of room to add new DVC villa rooms.

Quote:
I don't think they can do too much to limit the benefits of resale purchasers because ultimately it will affect direct buyers too. I certainly would think twice about purchasing if there were no reasonable out. Imagine buying a house you could never sell...yikes!
There are limits to the foresight consumers will display. Many other timeshares are practically unsellable immediately after purchase. You could go on eBay now and find dozens of listings from people just looking to get a couple hundred bucks--while ridding themselves of the dues obligation--for a timeshare that cost them $10K+.

Regarding the house analogy, look within a couple miles of your own house and I bet you'll find properties which have been on the market forever yet nobody is biting. Buying that house right next the railroad tracks seemed like a good idea to someone.

But I do agree it would not be wise for Disney to act too recklessly. Only time will tell how far they are willing to push the envelope.

Quote:
New question about cruises and DVC. I know there are DVC cruises. Are those just for direct buyers or for any DVC owner?
Direct buyers only. They won't even allow cash payment for the Member Cruise unless some points are owned which were purchased direct or resale prior to March 2011.
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Old 04-08-2013, 06:16 PM   #45
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[QUOTE=bisney;48046146Our thought was "buy at the most economical place where we wouldn't mind staying" so that if our waitlist doesn't work out, we'd be more than happy. Some people love staying at one place and that's great for them... for us, we like trying out different places which makes SSR's low dues and low PP buy-in very appealing.[/QUOTE]

I've always been a big fan of the "buy at the most economical place where you wouldn't mind staying" advice.

I bought SSR for the low MF, OKW for the low buyin price and BWV for the location. I like staying at all of them, but BWV is my favorite because of location and the point cost for the standard rooms.
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