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Old 03-27-2013, 04:36 PM   #16
JimMIA
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Originally Posted by fmer55 View Post
When I perused the closing documents I noticed that seller is in arrears on dues and owes money to Disney finance. He has still not sent his contracts back in and is claiming to be out of town until April 4th and then contracts will be executed. Who knows if this will happen, but it certainly is not Fidelity's fault.
Actually I would argue that you should have been notified of the legal and financial status of the account before you made an offer. Brokers are supposed to conduct due diligence, and they should have known. And if they knew, they should have told you so you could make an informed decision about whether this was someone you wanted to do business with.

It is possible the seller could have withheld that information from Fidelity, but given their well-established record of administrative excellence I think it's far more likely they didn't bother to ask any questions. To add insult to injury, they're going to charge you $195 for not doing what every other broker does well for nothing.

Good luck with your contract.

If you have any further problems, remember that none of this is your fault and you have every right to get your money back and move on.
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Old 03-27-2013, 04:45 PM   #17
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Actually I would argue that you should have been notified of the legal and financial status of the account before you made an offer. Brokers are supposed to conduct due diligence, and they should have known. And if they knew, they should have told you so you could make an informed decision about whether this was someone you wanted to do business with.

It is possible the seller could have withheld that information from Fidelity, but given their well-established record of administrative excellence I think it's far more likely they didn't bother to ask any questions. To add insult to injury, they're going to charge you $195 for not doing what every other broker does well for nothing.

Good luck with your contract.

If you have any further problems, remember that none of this is your fault and you have every right to get your money back and move on.
Jim, you are an ardent Fidelity basher. I would argue that exactly what you described is called Estoppels. The other problem, again, is the seller. I am sure he did not call up and say, hey, I am a deadbeat and I need to sell.

I do agree that Fidelity is not without fault, but Fidelity is a different animal in that distressed contracts are pushed their way by Disney. Which, of course, is going to create a whole new set of potential problems.

And, I fully understand none of it is my fault, I understand whose money it is, and I understand why I have a contract for $75 pp. I knew all of this going in and am hoping for the best. Thanks for the input.
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Old 03-27-2013, 05:54 PM   #18
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Jim, you are an ardent Fidelity basher.
If pointing out incompetence (this situation, and possibly yours) and objecting to unethical conduct (withholding legitimate offers on co-brokered deals to try to get the full commission -- to the detriment of their customer, the seller) is bashing, I plead guilty.
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I would argue that exactly what you described is called Estoppels. The other problem, again, is the seller. I am sure he did not call up and say, hey, I am a deadbeat and I need to sell.
Estoppel is very late in the process -- part of the closing preparation. Other brokers ask all of those questions up front.

I don't know if you have SOLD a DVC contract, but I have and I can tell you that other brokers send you a form that asks specifically about those questions...as well as estate, divorce, bankruptcy, and litigation. Obviously a seller could lie, as I mentioned above, but the fact remains that Fidelity constantly gets surprised by this stuff and nobody else does. It's like every transaction is their first.

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I do agree that Fidelity is not without fault, but Fidelity is a different animal in that distressed contracts are pushed their way by Disney. Which, of course, is going to create a whole new set of potential problems.
I don't know the terms of Fidelity's agreement with Disney. I doubt they are forced to take distressed contracts, but I guess it is possible. Honestly I don't think it matters whether they are taking the listings because they think they can make a buck or they have to.

The fact is, they do have some distressed contracts, and yes, distressed contracts often present special problems. But the question is not what they are working with. The question is how they handle their responsibilities.

If I had a business which was composed partly of selling distressed goods which presented special problems -- AND I repeatedly had serious issues dealing with those problems -- I'd ask myself how I could do better.

If I saw other brokers sending their sellers a form asking questions about legal and financial impediments to a neat, clean transaction...I just might try that myself.

If I repeatedly had customers complaining about things slipping through the cracks, lack of responsiveness, etc, etc...I might consider staying open at least one day on the weekends...or hiring more personnel...or hiring better personnel.

If I had the problems that Fidelity has had since the start (when they were GMAC), I would fix some of the problems instead of saying "Oh well, we're shorthanded." When you CHOOSE to be shorthanded, that's a lame excuse.
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Old 03-27-2013, 06:49 PM   #19
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I have to agree with JimMIA all of the above. I have worked with Fidelity and TSS on several resale contracts and trust me there is no comparison. I am surprised at this point Fidelity has not hired another agent - they seem to have a problems getting back to people, agents always have too much on their plates. I am not saying I will not work with Fidelity, unfortunately they seem to have the better contracts, but I know what to expect. As a seller... well my business will always go with TSS.
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Old 03-27-2013, 07:32 PM   #20
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If pointing out incompetence (this situation, and possibly yours) and objecting to unethical conduct (withholding legitimate offers on co-brokered deals to try to get the full commission -- to the detriment of their customer, the seller) is bashing, I plead guilty. Estoppel is very late in the process -- part of the closing preparation. Other brokers ask all of those questions up front.

I don't know if you have SOLD a DVC contract, but I have and I can tell you that other brokers send you a form that asks specifically about those questions...as well as estate, divorce, bankruptcy, and litigation. Obviously a seller could lie, as I mentioned above, but the fact remains that Fidelity constantly gets surprised by this stuff and nobody else does. It's like every transaction is their first.

I don't know the terms of Fidelity's agreement with Disney. I doubt they are forced to take distressed contracts, but I guess it is possible. Honestly I don't think it matters whether they are taking the listings because they think they can make a buck or they have to.

The fact is, they do have some distressed contracts, and yes, distressed contracts often present special problems. But the question is not what they are working with. The question is how they handle their responsibilities.

If I had a business which was composed partly of selling distressed goods which presented special problems -- AND I repeatedly had serious issues dealing with those problems -- I'd ask myself how I could do better.

If I saw other brokers sending their sellers a form asking questions about legal and financial impediments to a neat, clean transaction...I just might try that myself.

If I repeatedly had customers complaining about things slipping through the cracks, lack of responsiveness, etc, etc...I might consider staying open at least one day on the weekends...or hiring more personnel...or hiring better personnel.

If I had the problems that Fidelity has had since the start (when they were GMAC), I would fix some of the problems instead of saying "Oh well, we're shorthanded." When you CHOOSE to be shorthanded, that's a lame excuse.
I would think all of the major companies use a form similar to this?

http://www.fidelityresales.com/dvc-listing-kit.pdf.

Not looking for a debate and certainly not looking to prop up Fidelity, I just think your posts are not fair to people looking to purchase. I was told by an agent when I made an offer from one of the big 4 that I should call back when I wanted to make a serious offer. I was in contract a week later at the same price they would not present.

My whole point is I think you are doing buyers on this forum a disservice by giving them reservations about the company that I personally think is most willing to present any offer. As well as having as much, if not more, inventory as any other company. By discounting them all together you are selling yourself short as a buyer.

Any further discussion should take place at WDW at a pool bar of your choice
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Old 03-27-2013, 07:56 PM   #21
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As someone who is looking to buy my first contract, I've encountered a lot of the negatives that Jim listed in terms of people who don't get back to you, are lax in communication, and generally seem to take a devil-may-care approach. You're right in that they do seem to have more/better contracts on offer but seriously, how long does it take to get an answer from a seller as to whether or not they like an offer? I waited 6 days on one offer and am waiting two so far on another. I know when I've sold things in the past, I want to know about offers ASAP and I get back to agents/buyers as soon as possible. I'm not sure how much of the problems I've been encountering have been sellers/Fidelity/both, but I do believe Fidelity has to do a better job of getting info to/from sellers at a faster pace.
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Old 03-27-2013, 08:07 PM   #22
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As someone who is looking to buy my first contract, I've encountered a lot of the negatives that Jim listed in terms of people who don't get back to you, are lax in communication, and generally seem to take a devil-may-care approach. You're right in that they do seem to have more/better contracts on offer but seriously, how long does it take to get an answer from a seller as to whether or not they like an offer? I waited 6 days on one offer and am waiting two so far on another. I know when I've sold things in the past, I want to know about offers ASAP and I get back to agents/buyers as soon as possible. I'm not sure how much of the problems I've been encountering have been sellers/Fidelity/both, but I do believe Fidelity has to do a better job of getting info to/from sellers at a faster pace.
You are looking for your first contract and have a bad taste in your mouth. Move on to another company/call your agent every morning/submit offers that are only good for 24-48 hours, in writing. If I were on my first contract and not hearing back I would move on. I have done 3 contracts with them and made at least 30 offers with them. This is my first problem and I have been dealing with them on and off for just about a year.

But in all seriousness, if you find them lacking professionalism are you really comfortable with them handling a 10-20 thousand dollar transaction? My advice is move on.
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Old 03-27-2013, 08:24 PM   #23
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I would think all of the major companies use a form similar to this?

http://www.fidelityresales.com/dvc-listing-kit.pdf.
Yes, similar, although the ones I've seen were more detailed about the information in section IV on Fidelity's listing application. At least they are asking some of the right questions, and that's a good thing.

Having said that, Fidelity really seems to struggle with those issues. It's nice that they collect some of the information, but their track record makes me wonder whether they read any of it.

Having problematic listings is one thing. Failing on a pretty consistent basis with problematic listings is another. Any time there is a thread about a seller unable to close, most of us don't even have to think about which broker is involved. We know.


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I was told by an agent when I made an offer from one of the big 4 that I should call back when I wanted to make a serious offer. I was in contract a week later at the same price they would not present.
Don't know what to say about that. I don't think much of that attitude because I think a broker has an obligation to present all legitimate offers, regardless of whether they think the offer will be successful.

OTOH, they may have known full well that that particular seller would not even consider the offer, nor consider the person tendering the offer a serious buyer. They may have been trying to do you a favor with a reality check on that particular contract/seller.

I've been there, done that, as a seller -- telling the broker not to give any response at all to a lowball offer because I didn't think the prospective buyer was serious. The buyer came back with an offer $1 lower than my asking price (about $10 higher than their original offer) and I told the broker to move on. Sold it to someone else who I thought would be a better buyer.

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My whole point is I think you are doing buyers on this forum a disservice by giving them reservations about the company that I personally think is most willing to present any offer.
That's your personal opinion. I'm sure there are many who agree with you, and many who agree with me. That's what discussion boards are all about.
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Old 03-27-2013, 08:41 PM   #24
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Well glad we got all that straightened out. All i was askin for was my attachment. Didnt think it would start a whole debate ;-]
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Old 03-27-2013, 09:23 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by fmer55 View Post
My whole point is I think you are doing buyers on this forum a disservice by giving them reservations about the company that I personally think is most willing to present any offer.
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That's your personal opinion. I'm sure there are many who agree with you, and many who agree with me. That's what discussion boards are all about.
I agree with the point here. I enjoyed reading the respectful debate between the two of you.


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Don't know what to say about that. I don't think much of that attitude because I think a broker has an obligation to present all legitimate offers, regardless of whether they think the offer will be successful.
I think you need to be careful here Jim. What makes a "legitimate" offer is subjective. I have successfully bought contracts at prices significantly below asking price. So while you may not have thought my offers were legitimate, the sellers did, because they accepted. Brokers have a responsibility to present all offers, without being the arbiter of what makes a legitimate offer.

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Well glad we got all that straightened out. All i was askin for was my attachment. Didnt think it would start a whole debate ;-]
That's understandable, because you're new here. This is what happens in just about every thread. Consider it a kind of conversation evolution.
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Old 03-28-2013, 08:08 AM   #26
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I think you need to be careful here Jim. What makes a "legitimate" offer is subjective. I have successfully bought contracts at prices significantly below asking price. So while you may not have thought my offers were legitimate, the sellers did, because they accepted. Brokers have a responsibility to present all offers, without being the arbiter of what makes a legitimate offer.
Right. I didn't phrase that well -- I meant the offer was legitimate from the prospective purchaser's point of view...not the broker's.

It's NOT the place of the broker to decide which offers merit presentation. I think the broker has an obligation to tell the prospective buyer they don't think an offer is realistic, but they shouldn't tell them "Call me back when you're serious."

By the same token, the broker should not delay presentation of co-brokered offers in the hope of increasing their commission. Not only does the listing broker have an obligation to the other broker and prospective buyer, they are not being fair to their own listing customer when they pick and choose which offers they present when.

The idea of presenting all offers as expeditiously as possible is not just sound business sense. It's also specifically mandated by the national real estate code of ethics.

Sellers can, and do, make judgements on the legitimacy of offers every day...and that is the seller's prerogative. Buyers do the same thing. Nobody wants to waste their time with someone who is not serious, who really can't go through with a sale, or who is going to be high maintenance and problematic. "Ain't nobody got time for that!"
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Old 03-28-2013, 08:59 AM   #27
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You are looking for your first contract and have a bad taste in your mouth. Move on to another company/call your agent every morning/submit offers that are only good for 24-48 hours, in writing. If I were on my first contract and not hearing back I would move on. I have done 3 contracts with them and made at least 30 offers with them. This is my first problem and I have been dealing with them on and off for just about a year.

But in all seriousness, if you find them lacking professionalism are you really comfortable with them handling a 10-20 thousand dollar transaction? My advice is move on.
I think this is very sound advice.

The problems of doing business with Fidelity are pretty well known here, and even Fidelity fans will admit that you have to be willing to accept some things. I think most folks do business with Fidelity a) in the hope of getting a lower buy-in price, and/or b) Fidelity has a specific contract that fits their needs perfectly that they can't find elsewhere.

It should surprise noone that you have to be more patient, and you have to work a little harder doing business with this broker. That extra effort/patience is worth it to many for the possibility of getting a lower price.

I also think many prospective buyers could save themselves a lot of hassles by doing more of their own due diligence. It is not hard to find out what an owner paid, and what their original mortgage was on a DVC contract. If they are in arrears in either dues or payments, there might be a lien on file that would tip that off. If a contract is mired in some legal entanglement, that might be disclosed by public records checks. If there are potential problems evident, move on to another contract that doesn't have those risks.

The buyer could also question Fidelity specifically about issues like divorce, probate, bankruptcy, owing more than the sales proceeds will yield, etc, etc. Sure, the seller could have lied to Fidelity, but if you don't bother to ask the questions, whose bad is that?

Those extra steps take time and effort, but if you're buying from a pool where many contracts are distressed, doing some of your own work to try to identify potential problems is probably a sensible precaution.

I don't have any reservations about Fidelity's ability to handle transactions successfully, but I personally would not go through all the work above to buy a timeshare. A dream house, certainly -- but not a timeshare.
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Old 03-28-2013, 11:35 AM   #28
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I am not bashing Fidelity in my above post. I did mention that it was not Sharon's fault that the seller did not return the paperwork. I did check the comptroller's site to see if there were problems with the contract since they had not returned the paperwork. It was fine. I am hoping the rest will go smoothly but I now know that I need to stay "on top" of the transaction. I have never had to do that with TTS.

However, I have to say I am not impressed with Fidelity. Here is my example why: I placed an offer on a contract. It was accepted but then the seller changed their mind about some issues, then there were not as many points in the contract as originally listed - which prompted more negotiation. In the end, I withdrew my offer. The contract is back up on Fidelity's site - with the WRONG amount of points still listed. To me that is just sloppy.
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Old 03-28-2013, 12:31 PM   #29
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I think most folks do business with Fidelity a) in the hope of getting a lower buy-in price, and/or b) Fidelity has a specific contract that fits their needs perfectly that they can't find elsewhere.
I was expecting to get a better price from them in my recent Vero contract negotiations but that did not turn out to be the case. In addition they charge higher closing costs than TSS plus the 195 admin fee.
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