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Old 10-22-2012, 11:53 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by pilferk View Post
1) I'm not suggesting FP, in it's current format, would completely disappear. It might..but I'd be surprised. I'd think there will more likely be some combination of the new FP+ features, along with the existing FP system...with maybe some changes in medium (paperless). So the existing version (+ or - some features and access to special event type things) would still be available to day guests of the resort. There might be FEWER "standard FP's" than there are now, but they'll exist. They likely won't have access to things like the specialized M&G's or the "special" Illuminations seating. But they'll have the "basic" version...as they do now. My comments were really directed toward the "new features" portion of FP+.
Agree.

Quote:
2) Disney has shown, with other things, they're not too worried about forcing people who don't WANT to plan...to have to plan. If they can increase their overall operational efficiency by enough..I suspect they'd be willing to do the same, here.

3) And yet...there are plenty of people who do just that. Make all their ADR's at 180 days for their entire trip (or ten days of it, at least)..and then "tweak" as they get closer if they need to. And Disney has not changed that system, or their system for booking special events (Hoop De Doo seats, etc) in quite awhile. If you look at the way Disney has operationalized things in the past 20 years, up to and including the DDP, I think it's far more likely they adopt a similar "bent" than not.
On these points, I still view it as an imperfect analogy. Disney has...what...maybe 600-800 seats to fill each evening at Crystal Palace. And that's drawing from MK crowds which average 45,000 daily. So yeah, Disney doesn't really care which 800 people fill those chairs.

But guests do have certain expectations for being able to ride Toy Story Mania, Soarin, Space Mountain and others. And I don't think it would be in Disney's best interest to arrogantly dismiss those expectations.

Overall FP+ strikes me as a nice value-added but not something which is going to have a tremendous impact on hotel reservations. There may be some modest uptick in occupancy and/or rates they are able to charge, but it's not a game changer.

If they try to force too much, they may be surprised at the result.
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Old 10-22-2012, 11:56 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by ctl View Post
If WDW is announcing something like this Dec 6, then when would it start? 180 days out from Dec 6 is June 4, 2013. 90 days from Dec 6 is March 6, just before Spring Break. I suppose I'll get used to it, but I would think it would cut down on people buying Park Hoppers, if they have to stick around for FP+.
I like a little more spontaneity.
Sooner than June, 2013, IMHO.

Later than Jan 1, 2013, IMHO.

March-ish is probably a decent quess.

ASSUMING that the program is announced Dec 6th, and not sooner than that.

One point, though...Disney has handled shortened windows, before. For example, announcing the opening date of a restaurant inside the 180 day window...and they've handled it different ways. Sometimes, they allow a free for all (come one, come all, to make all ressies from opening to day 180-ish)...like with Be Our Guest.

Sometimes they've said "Call the first 3 days for days opening til 90, and then after that for days 90 - 180-ish".

So, no matter what....there's no promise that people won't end up with a shortened FP+ "window" if they're traveling to WDW nearer to the effective start date. And there's no telling how Disney will handle things for those folks.
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Old 10-22-2012, 12:41 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by tjkraz View Post
On these points, I still view it as an imperfect analogy. Disney has...what...maybe 600-800 seats to fill each evening at Crystal Palace. And that's drawing from MK crowds which average 45,000 daily. So yeah, Disney doesn't really care which 800 people fill those chairs.
But there are more headliner attractions per park than there are TS restaurants. And there's more capacity/throughput in those headliners than there are tables at a TS.

Looking at the testing history, you get two headliner FP's that you can book far in advance. Basically...you're eliminating your FP run at rope drop so you can move on to "something else" quicker...and getting one additional headliner FP.

And we don' know how limited each headliner is, per day (or, really, how many "prebooks" vs "day of" FP's there will be).

Your crowds at MK might be 45k per day..but how many of those are staying on site? There's about 30k rooms, on site, at WDW.
http://touringplans.com/walt-disney-...s/number-rooms
I'm not sure exactly what average occupancy is...and those rooms include DVC villas...but I'd bet you're talking about somewhere in the neighborhood of 100k guests in Disney hotel rooms per night.

And 5 parks to disperse them through.

Now, of those guests, they would have 8 choices (including MSEP and Wishes) of headliners at MK...of which they'd get to choose 2. Not everyone is going to choose the same 2...which means you'll get further dispersement.

I suspect you'll see the overall EFFECT is going to be quite similar to the one the ADR system had on the restaurants (independent of the DDP).

No analogy is going to be 1:1 in this case...but looking at the ADR system gives us some history of what they've done in the past. It's a similar "resources/capacity/efficiency" challenge. Ultimately, your goals for distribution and experience might be different..but similar mechanisms.

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But guests do have certain expectations for being able to ride Toy Story Mania, Soarin, Space Mountain and others. And I don't think it would be in Disney's best interest to arrogantly dismiss those expectations.
I don't think they are. I think, instead, they're saying "Stay with us and you have a better chance of seeing those things, and not having to spend a larger portion of your day waiting in line to see them".

It's not the headliners that day guests won't see...and, in fact, if it's a zero sum equation (standard FP + FP Plus = current number of FP available)..the only difference will be that more day guests will be waiting in the standby lines. Ride throughput won't change. the total number of FP's won't change...only who gets them (and, likely, not by an enormous number).

Essentially, it would be the same as allowing all the hotel guests to enter the park 2 hours early, get 2 FP's for their day, and THEN letting in the day guests and only letting them get one at a time. The only difference is the "when" and "where" they're getting those 2 extra FP's.

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Overall FP+ strikes me as a nice value-added but not something which is going to have a tremendous impact on hotel reservations. There may be some modest uptick in occupancy and/or rates they are able to charge, but it's not a game changer.
Agree. But neither was ME, or DDP, or the +10 ADR advantage. As a sum total, they're nice, though. They are a nice "offset" to the premium that Disney charges for their rooms (both in terms of rates and amenities offered). I'm not sure how much they'll change anyone's mind, though.

Quote:
If they try to force too much, they may be surprised at the result.
I think, all things considered, very little catches them off guard.
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Old 10-22-2012, 03:05 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by pilferk View Post
The thing is..the slower it is, the less benefit FP+ has..and the less effect it will have on standby customers. Same is true of the ADR system...it's much more "necessary" to make your ADR's early around, say, X-mas and Easter times than it is in, say, late October/early November (usually).
See, this is a philosphy many have, but I've never embraced. We always go at slow times of year, yet I lean heavily on FP as well. Sure, I'm not avoiding a two hour line, but even if I avoid a 20 minute line, then it's worth it. I see that all the time "Oh, the waits 20 minutes, I might as well ride now." Well, if I avoid five 20 minute lines - that's 100 minutes a day I get to spend doing something besides standing in line.

Anyways, my point being - even during slow times of year, there should be a benefit to FP+, just maybe not as much of a benefit. As you point out, they also might not "run out" as quickly as during holidays.

Actually, I'm sort of looking forward to this. Part of the fun I get from a Disney Trip is the planning, and the challenge to see everything we want while avoiding waiting in line. (Last trip we saw we waited in ride lines of greater than 10 minutes a total of 4 times during a 10-day trip. That doesn't include waiting for a parade or fireworks though.) However, how touring techniques had sort of gotten to a point where we had it all figured out, and did the same thing every time. The removal of late FPs and the advent of FP+ means I may have to go back to the drawing board and re-evaluate my methods, which means a return to the challenge of planning.

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Originally Posted by tjkraz View Post
Overall FP+ strikes me as a nice value-added but not something which is going to have a tremendous impact on hotel reservations. There may be some modest uptick in occupancy and/or rates they are able to charge, but it's not a game changer.
Edited: To another point, I am not sure that FP+ will not necessarily drive a HUGE # people to stay on-site, but I am sure they could see a 2-5 % increase, which to their way of seeing would be a large value. It increases the on-site benefits, so those that already have done it might be more likely to continue to pay the higher on-site prices. Remember also, there are people out there that don't want to be at the park at 9 AM. They show up at noon and are GUARANTEED a 2 hour wait for Toy Story Mania. Now suddenly I can show up at DHS at noon and still have a FP for TSM? Certainly there are some people that will see value in that.
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Old 10-22-2012, 04:34 PM   #35
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Ive heard from an employee that Disney is going to be rolling out a bracelet that someone in a party will wear for the trip. Before you leave home you will be able to book everything down to what time you want to ride a specific ride down to where and what you will be eating- that way when you walk into a restaurant on property you wont have to wait. In my opinion it kinda kills the experience. The bracelet will also be a room key.
She thinks that they are going to be doing away with FP once all the kinks get worked out with this new system. Who knows though.
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Old 10-22-2012, 04:41 PM   #36
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I'm a little concerned about the whole book-your-Fastpasses on your device thing. Maybe it's hard to believe, but there are a lot of us out here who don't have smartphones, etc.

If I can't use Fastpass+ because I don't have some gadget (that I probably wouldn't bring on vacation anyway), I'm going to be ... unhappy.

Or am I missing something? I probably am. I hope I am.
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Old 10-22-2012, 05:30 PM   #37
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I'm a little concerned about the whole book-your-Fastpasses on your device thing. Maybe it's hard to believe, but there are a lot of us out here who don't have smartphones, etc.

If I can't use Fastpass+ because I don't have some gadget (that I probably wouldn't bring on vacation anyway), I'm going to be ... unhappy.

Or am I missing something? I probably am. I hope I am.
I am with you, I or we don't have smart phones and have no intention of getting one so we are out too but also would not book them anyway if I did, just this past week did not use the one fast pass we got for SM and today it was a pain getting back to EE to use the fast pass and trying to figure out even if we wanted one... good thing was it was not crowded and we just walked on... just had to stay around that area waiting........ to use it...before we could go and eat lunch... guess alot of people are just not like us.
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Old 10-22-2012, 10:33 PM   #38
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I'm a little concerned about the whole book-your-Fastpasses on your device thing. Maybe it's hard to believe, but there are a lot of us out here who don't have smartphones, etc.

If I can't use Fastpass+ because I don't have some gadget (that I probably wouldn't bring on vacation anyway), I'm going to be ... unhappy.

Or am I missing something? I probably am. I hope I am.
My suspicion is you won't HAVE to use a mobile device. It'll just make your life easier. Your FP+ bookings and ADRs will be on your wristband. The mobile device would just allow you to keep track of them without having a piece of paper with everything written down.

The other potential advantage might be that you can book a FP during the day directly on your mobile device, versus having to walk to the FP machine. I do believe Disney knows that a good percentage of the general public isn't web enabled.

The fact is, mobile devices already give a person an advantage in park touring. You can access wait times and FP return times anywhere in the park instead of having to go to directly to the ride. So, a mobile-ready person sitting in Tomorrowland and want to see what the wait time is for Pirates can do that on their device, whereas you would have to walk across the park. Perhaps this is "unfair".

Long-term, there will be less and less people without web-ready devices, the availability of band-width will grow, and the prices will drop. Eventually you won't have mobiles phones that DON'T have it. (Look at the selection of non-SMART phones at your local store even today...your lucky if they carry three models.) But there will always be some fraction that still won't have phones, or won't want to use it, so they will always have to have a non-mobile option.
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Old 10-23-2012, 06:22 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by skier_pete View Post
See, this is a philosphy many have, but I've never embraced. We always go at slow times of year, yet I lean heavily on FP as well. Sure, I'm not avoiding a two hour line, but even if I avoid a 20 minute line, then it's worth it. I see that all the time "Oh, the waits 20 minutes, I might as well ride now." Well, if I avoid five 20 minute lines - that's 100 minutes a day I get to spend doing something besides standing in line.
Oh, I agree. I'm not saying FP's are worthless during slower times. But they are "worth less", if that makes sense. You point out why, above. During busier times, it's saving you 2 hours. During less busy times, it's saving you 20 -45 min. Certainly worthwhile...but not quite as "valuable".

Quote:
Anyways, my point being - even during slow times of year, there should be a benefit to FP+, just maybe not as much of a benefit. As you point out, they also might not "run out" as quickly as during holidays.
Absolutely agree.
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Old 10-23-2012, 08:05 AM   #40
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My suspicion is you won't HAVE to use a mobile device. It'll just make your life easier. Your FP+ bookings and ADRs will be on your wristband. The mobile device would just allow you to keep track of them without having a piece of paper with everything written down.

The other potential advantage might be that you can book a FP during the day directly on your mobile device, versus having to walk to the FP machine. I do believe Disney knows that a good percentage of the general public isn't web enabled.

The fact is, mobile devices already give a person an advantage in park touring. You can access wait times and FP return times anywhere in the park instead of having to go to directly to the ride. So, a mobile-ready person sitting in Tomorrowland and want to see what the wait time is for Pirates can do that on their device, whereas you would have to walk across the park. Perhaps this is "unfair".

Long-term, there will be less and less people without web-ready devices, the availability of band-width will grow, and the prices will drop. Eventually you won't have mobiles phones that DON'T have it. (Look at the selection of non-SMART phones at your local store even today...your lucky if they carry three models.) But there will always be some fraction that still won't have phones, or won't want to use it, so they will always have to have a non-mobile option.
Well just from my point of view and I know I am in the minority but it is not at all about price... I just don't care about them.... I do not look at my phone at all most days... I just don't want to be contacted constantly and have nothing to say I do not want one for free .... I have my itouch for apps if I want. I am disturbed by the people in the parks or on the Disney buses , ignoring their children or worse pushing them away when they are trying to get their attention , while they are glued to their cell phones??? really sad... look around at people with their faces glued to a phone...
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Old 10-23-2012, 09:04 AM   #41
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Well just from my point of view and I know I am in the minority but it is not at all about price... I just don't care about them.... I do not look at my phone at all most days... I just don't want to be contacted constantly and have nothing to say I do not want one for free .... I have my itouch for apps if I want. I am disturbed by the people in the parks or on the Disney buses , ignoring their children or worse pushing them away when they are trying to get their attention , while they are glued to their cell phones??? really sad... look around at people with their faces glued to a phone...
Yeah, I kind of agree.

Also, not being able to access ride wait times is one thing. I'd like to, but it's no big deal. I have a decent idea what gets busy when. However, if all the Fastpasses are gone when I'm there because folks sitting at their resorts decided they want to ride Soarin' that day (and may not even show!) and go tap, tap, tap on a gadget instead of actually showing up ... yeah, not so happy.

I guess I think actually getting your butt in gear and, you know, being at the parks should definitely get you the priority.
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Old 10-23-2012, 09:33 AM   #42
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I can't wait for Fastpass+. I just hope we can actually schedule the fastpasses ourselves and not just get to select the rides and disney decides my schedule.

This would be fantastic for people who like to sleep in on busy days. Just think I will not have to fight the people and rush to TSM for the last fastpasses of the day.

I do think they will have both the Fastpass+ option for people who want to schedule and the regular version for those that can't or don't want to.
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Old 10-23-2012, 09:45 AM   #43
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I have my itouch for apps if I want.
Then you would be able to use any web-enabled system that Disney puts in place. That's why they have been adding free wireless Internet service to all of the parks.

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I am disturbed by the people in the parks or on the Disney buses , ignoring their children or worse pushing them away when they are trying to get their attention , while they are glued to their cell phones??? really sad... look around at people with their faces glued to a phone...
Bad behavior is bad behavior...but as the old saying goes, you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I run my own business and am essentially on call 24/7. Without a smartphone, Disney vacations may not even be practical for our family. If you see me staring into my phone while at a Disney park, it's probably because I am responding to an email, remotely rebooting a server or performing some other function which would otherwise require me to separate from my family and return to the hotel. Or it could be because I am posting a photo of our kids to Facebook to share with friends & family back home. Or I might be checking the Hidden Mickey guidebook app or pulling-up nearby restaurant menus to find something which appeals to everyone without wandering between the different locations.

If Disney creates tools which allow me to monitor attraction wait times and collect electronic FASTPASSES without criss-crossing the park to look at times boards and grab paper tickets, I say more power to them!!!

If you CHOOSE not to use it, that's certainly your prerogative.
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Old 10-23-2012, 10:19 AM   #44
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Well just from my point of view and I know I am in the minority but it is not at all about price... I just don't care about them.... I do not look at my phone at all most days... I just don't want to be contacted constantly and have nothing to say I do not want one for free .... I have my itouch for apps if I want. I am disturbed by the people in the parks or on the Disney buses , ignoring their children or worse pushing them away when they are trying to get their attention , while they are glued to their cell phones??? really sad... look around at people with their faces glued to a phone...
I'm with you on this one. I see the phones as tools to be used, not to make you a slave to social media. I don't get a lot of calls or texts on mine, though I do check e-mails a few times a day. I maybe check facebook/twitter once a day, but only when I am sitting by myself. I told my wife when I got it that if she sees me using it in actual real-life social situations she should smack it out of my hand. (Real-live human beings >>> virtual human beings.)

That said, what I like about them is the ability to search for information or find a location being at hand as opposed to being blind. I especially like that function while traveling. (Using my phone as a GPS and searching for restaurants and gas stations.) We've found our way many times and found great restaurants along the road enough that alone makes me happy to have one.

However, even though I earlier was the one that said about it's advantage in the parks, our last trip to WDW was the first time I had it with me, and I almost never took it out of my pocket. There was a few times I accessed it for wait times, but again because it was a slow time of year, I didn't find I needed to very often.
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July/August 2012 Disneyland / Australia TripPTR "I choose to Be Amused" TR
The Disney Trifecta - a PTR for 2013. LINK Trip Reports - ABD: "A Fistful of Fastpasses" WDW: "For A Few Fastpasses More" DCL: "Once Upon a Time in the Carribean"
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Old 10-24-2012, 05:51 AM   #45
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Agree.
If they try to force too much, they may be surprised at the result.

I love everyone's thoughts - and - within a year / 5 years we can go back and revisit this thread. My opinion is this: WDW is looking to make money on this. I have worked with (not for) them! Am not saying it could / should / will backfire - it certainly may! But, there is green envisioned at the end of this rainbow (In there Humble Opinion)!

They ARE A BUSINESS! Walt and his Utopian vision went out the door 40 years ago! They make capital expenditures not to make our lives easier - they do it for profit! And, that is the question you have to answer: How do they profit from this expenditure? We are all just trying to figure out where that profit comes from!

They are spending Kajillion's on this project - and - the guys in Cali do not say: "Ok, here is a Kajillion - I certainly hope our customers like it!"! They say: "Tell me how long until I make 2 Kajillion on my 1 Kajillion investment?".

Could be: Increased Occupancy (DVC and Cash Property)? Note: Which also means more shopping / dining.
Could be: Increased Ticket Sales?
Could be: Increased Ticket Prices?
Will not be: Value to Customer - unless that brings increased Occupancy, Sales or Prices.

The profit motive, IMHO, must be: Increased DVC sales, more hotel occupancy, increased AP Tix sales. To that end, it will be made available to those staying on property or buying an AP!

While I could be totally wrong - I know them well enough to say that they do not invest Green Money without a Green return!

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