Ethics question about DVC point rentals

[DisneyNutMary]

I'd like to interject as devil's advocate for the OP again. We are all owners, we know the rules about banking, borrowing, canceling, holding accounts, use years, etc. we should not assume the OP knows the same.
Though the OP may have been asking too much of the owner, as a responsible salesperson, the owner should have explained her point of view before canceling and returning her down payment at a point in time where it ruins the OPs chance of securing a similar reservation elsewhere.
A points rental agreement is a risk for both sides. The OP took the chance of potentially paying a vacation in full without being completely certain that when she arrives at check-in there will even be a reservation in her name. Who knows if an owner will ever change their mind at the last minute and put the points into holding for her own personal use.
To put the owner 100% in the right, without giving the OP the benefit of the doubt as to the risk she is taking may forever scare her off from renting points, and may scare off other potential renters- as they may see it as only the renter taking a risk in these contracts.
We all want to make profit on our points, and to do so we must acknowledge a certain level of risk I every deal and take early steps to lessen the risk. The owner in this case took a risk without a contract, then panicked and wound up screwing herself out of a profit and the OP out of an anticipated vacation

[maburke]

Originally Posted by bobbiwoz

OPI would feel stunned if it happened to me. You asked a question and lost your reservation. Most people here agree with the member, I don't.

Best wishes.

Bobbi

I agree that it was certainly stunning for the OP. That made me think, though, why would the owner take that action? After the effort she put in, and the six weeks closer to the points expiring, knowing how little inventory there was, canceling was really against the owner's best interest. Assuming she did not act impulsively out of hurt feelings, I think the most likely explanation is that she was just spooked. If you look at all the advice given to renters, it says, "if the deal doesn't seem right, walk away." Well, that's probably how this owner felt. And as has been explained here, the renter is risking all the monies paid, but there's really no limit to what the owner is risking, considering possible damage to the unit or unpaid bills. So this owner maybe felt that, "something's not right about this rental," and walked away, despite her lost effort and value of her points.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by maburke

I agree that it was certainly stunning for the OP. That made me think, though, why would the owner take that action? After the effort she put in, and the six weeks closer to the points expiring, knowing how little inventory there was, canceling was really against the owner's best interest. Assuming she did not act impulsively out of hurt feelings, I think the most likely explanation is that she was just spooked. If you look at all the advice given to renters, it says, "if the deal doesn't seem right, walk away." Well, that's probably how this owner felt. And as has been explained here, the renter is risking all the monies paid, but there's really no limit to what the owner is risking, considering possible damage to the unit or unpaid bills. So this owner maybe felt that, "something's not right about this rental," and walked away, despite her lost effort and value of her points.

That's why I said we may not have all the info. It could be how things were said or interpreted, not necessarily what was said.

[starry_solo]

There are 3 sides to all stories. Renter's side, rentee's side, and the truth.

BTW, I don't own any DVC resort but have rented from 4 different owners. I respond to DVC owners' "points for rent" threads here and another board. Price per point, when to pay (1/2 due when reservation is made/confirmation received, balance due X days out), method of payment (PayPal, personal check, etc.) are typically set forth within the first thread that the renter posts.

[Lynne M]

OP, just a little bit more on the owner's perspective.

Like some others, I'm not really sure why your member cancelled so abruptly, especially since she may have put her points at risk by doing so. And we're never really going to know, she may have just been having a bad day, or what she perceived as your reluctance to pay after she'd been trying to put your reservation together for months just made her lose her temper.

You may feel that some of the responses were cold, but we're all looking at this from the owner's point of view. We can't help but do that; it's not coldness, it's realism, and in some cases, colored by our own less-than-pleasant experiences with renters.

Trying to figure out who's to blame is kind of pointless at this stage, so the best I can offer is suggestions on how to have a more successful renting experience next time.

1. First and most importantly, make sure that you're very clear on the owner's terms before any reservations are made, and before you send any money. Contracts for these sorts of rentals are pretty worthless legally, but they do serve the purpose of laying out the terms of the deal so that everyone understands what's expected.

2. There's no 'standard' rental agreement, and there's no system. It's entirely up to you and the owner to arrive at terms that are acceptable to both of you. The owner is in the driver's seat, obviously, since they control the reservation. If you don't like the terms being offered, you'll want to find another owner. if you want to make special arrangements like having a payment plan, you need to state that up front. No owner is going to react well when a renter suddenly asks if they can defer payment, months into the deal.

3. Even if you've paid in full and have a reservation confirmation in hand, you don't own the reservation. It's not 'yours', until you're standing at the check-in desk. The owner maintains full control of the reservation until you arrive and check in. That's not me just sayin' that, that's DVC policy. So, while you can debate whether canceling your reservation was a nice thing to do, the owner was 100% within their rights to do it.

[DMKEDM]

A word here on communication: like most other posters, my sympathies are w/the owner...not getting full payment, as expected, after substantially more effort than "usual," would have spooked me, too. I might well have called (or emailed) "the minute" I got the request for delay in payment, but if I didn't get an essentially "instant" response, I likely would have canceled and started over, too...especially since if it was a hard-to-get reservation, chances are good she had no trouble re-renting the completed reservation.

But the important thing here, I think, is to look at your communication (and your owner's). Email is tricky stuff. It's VERY easy to misunderstand the emotion in a communication. You say you thought you were polite. Maybe she didn't read it that way. Maybe she viewed your communication as a "demand." That language about "other contracts having payment schedules" would have scared me off, too..."other contracts" don't have thing number one to do with THIS transaction, ESPECIALLY after (from her point of view) she'd been extraordinarily nice (not charging you til waitlists came through, actually being willing to use waitlists, etc.)

Another thought: delays are "death"--I don't know if she tried to contact you and couldn't get in touch with you quickly, or if she'd had that experience during the lead-up to the finalization of your arrangement. But if you were at all hard to get in touch with (justifiably or not), that could have added greatly to her decision to just cancel. Don't forget: it doesn't matter at all if you were at work, or busy w/a family situation, or whatever your reason--IF you hadn't responded to her essentially "instantly" that would have been a very big, very red flag...of course I don't know that this happened (and I'm not "accusing" you of it)...just pointing out that "innocent" delays in responding could easily have contributed to this problem.

Anyway, I'm not one to "negotiate to the last nickel." And I wouldn't want to deal with someone who tries to negotiate me down to the best possible deal for her/him. Of course, lots of people do see these kinds of negotiations as perfectly acceptable/normal--even good. But I don't want to be nickel-and-dimed, or detailed-to-the-nth degree. I'm doing something very nice when I (not very often) rent my points. I'm more than willing to help (a nice request that acknowledges the effort it will "cost" me goes a long way). I'm not willing to feel like someone's trying to get "just a little more" out of me, especially that late in the process.

I do hope this is a "learning experience" (for both you and your owner)...it does seem to me that more attention to the "how" of your communication (on both sides) might have prevented this sad result. But it's done now. All you can do is apply the lessons of this situation to any future situation you may consider getting involved in.

Good luck whatever you decide to do in the future.

[rusafee1183]

Originally Posted by st225

She didn't bother to counter with a request for all of the money now.

I am sorry that your reservation was cancelled and that the Renter was not clear up front about the terms of your payments, but I do hope that you understand the position that you put the member in and why they did what they did. I don't agree with the way that they DID it, but I understand why they did.

And as far as the above statement goes, I don't know if the wording you used is what you meant - but they should not have to 'counter' you with anything. Common courtesy would have been for them to send you a follow up email before cancelling, but they own the points/membership/reservation and this is not a negotiation, especially at that point in time.

They want certain terms, and if you want to rent with them - then you agree to them and follow through on your end. But, again - those should have been laid out well before they were.

I am sorry you are dealing with this, and my advice is that the next time you want to rent - make sure that the terms are spelled out before you make it this far.

Good luck

[CRobin]

Originally Posted by DMKEDM

Email is tricky stuff. It's VERY easy to misunderstand the emotion in a communication.

This is exactly my thinking as I read all of the posts in this thread. Email can often be very misunderstood. I have seen too many instances where a phone call would have circumvented a miscommunication via email. Of course, some people are reluctant to share phone numbers, but that has always been a requirement of mine when I rent out points.

Sent from my iPad using DISBoards

[lisaviolet]

Originally Posted by bobbiwoz

OPI would feel stunned if it happened to me. You asked a question and lost your reservation. Most people here agree with the member, I don't.

Best wishes.

Bobbi

But Bobbi - the OP didn't email or phone and ask the question first, correct?

If I'm following correctly they sent half payment with the question. I don't know but I find that *off* and quite frankly slightly manipulative. And remember after the owner spent time trying to secure the missing days.

Also, I suspect - and forgive me if I'm absolutely incorrect - that the payment right away of the original days led to the thought that as soon as the owner secured the rest that payment would be needed - that miscommunication. But in fairness to the OP's position - that should have been clearly negotiated/stated from day one.

OP - I smiled at your thought of owners being cold here. My heart is massive. But in this situation I would be 100% *cold* in your opinion. To me it's called having boundaries.

[phi2012]

I am neither a renter or rentee (yet), but I plan on renting very soon, and I started reading this tread as I found it interesting to hear all the differing opinions.

I am sorry for the OP as I couldn't imagine losing a booking so close to going and not being able to get another reservation. That being said it is helpful to me as someone looking to rent to learn how much a renter can lose out and that they are as wary as we, the rentee's are. Banking points etc is often unknow to us the rentee unless we have been told about it (which I now have been, so am actually in a better position than before).

This post has actually made me more confident about renting points as I now understand that I am having to be trusted too.

For the OP I hope you manage to get another booking for your time and that it hasn't scared you off renting points in the future, just maybe go with someone who is happy to take a payment closer to the date of travel and gives you a clear contract before booking the points. Good Luck

[DougEMG]

Seems to me that the big problem was that there wasn't a contract in place saying exactly what all the terms we're, then there would be a lot less room for this type of problem to happen.

[Deb & Bill]

Originally Posted by DougEMG

Seems to me that the big problem was that there wasn't a contract in place saying exactly what all the terms we're, then there would be a lot less room for this type of problem to happen.

And DVC does actually require members to use a contract per our Public Offering Statement. But not many members actually read the Public Offering Statement.

[msp2mco]

It's unfortunate that this situation happened to the OP and the DVC owner because there hadn't been clear and open communication and a contract at the beginning. As someone who has rented points in the past, I try to work with people who are reserving months ahead of time. I would not consider working with a wait list. My contract goes out after the reservation has been made, but I share the terms of the contract with the renter upfront.

[chalee94]

Originally Posted by bobbiwoz

I would feel stunned if it happened to me. You asked a question and lost your reservation.

Originally Posted by lisaviolet

But Bobbi - the OP didn't email or phone and ask the question first, correct?

If I'm following correctly they sent half payment with the question. I don't know but I find that *off* and quite frankly slightly manipulative. And remember after the owner spent time trying to secure the missing days.

Originally Posted by DougEMG

Seems to me that the big problem was that there wasn't a contract in place saying exactly what all the terms we're, then there would be a lot less room for this type of problem to happen.

for all the talk about "contracts", let's go back to the first post:

Originally Posted by st225

She sent an email contract that asked for all of the money now. I sent half and asked-- in a way that I thought was polite-- whether she would take half ow what was due now and half within 30 days of arrival.

the owner sent a contract asking for full payment. that was the deal.

the renter decided unilaterally to renegotiate the terms and send the remaining half of the payment when they felt like it.

expectations seemed VERY clear - and the renter says so. the response by the renter looked suspiciously like a stall tactic (whether intended as such or not). the time to ask the question was before passive-aggressively mailing half the payment.

[Lil' Grumpy]

wow..(m~94) , you are on the ball!

dear op, what was your desire? i think you was anger for losing the
revs., and frustrated . from your post, you seem unclear what took
place and did not recognized how much the owner was trying to
help you. but as you know now, that revs. is lost. but i think
if you learn from the experiences, you can rent again...without
the problems.

i didn't think in any way/s you was trying to pull a fast one. what
i do think, a lack of understanding and "cold feet" made a few
mistakes. those mistakes are correctable but one must do a lil'
problem solving. ( the most important first step in any problem
solving effort...is to recognized exactly what the problems
were. )

the reason...redirecting back to your primary desire/s---was to
help you . yes--some are going to support your feelings &
others are not. and while i think you came here to express
anger/frustrations, i think most are trying to give you concrete
feedback that can "guide" your future actions...if you ever try
again. & because you reported how much efforts the owner
gave you.....you might want to build the bridge.

does it really matter whatever others feel here? do you think , for
example, the owner can be influence by any thing/s said here?
also i think many renters are seeking the dvc bargains but don't
have any true understanding of dvc operations. ( i think there
a wonderful post on the dis-somehwere- explaining dvc things
to know.)

one important thing i would consider if i was renting, that renting
is not a personal relationship but a business one. therefore,
i would be on alert for promises that are not realistic &
over stated-over the moon that others are not getting.
even a professional contract has no meaning if the owner
decide otherwise. it think there was a professional renter,
for many years -suddenly went broke , and left some
hanging. disney will not help.

no renter has any control whatso ever, over the revs..& the
owners can cax. anytime. member services will not talk
to you. why would you think you deserve the same rights
as an owner---that could set you up for failures & worst,
being taken advantage of.

just some of the things a renter need to accept and consider -
before spending their money. the one benefit from taking the
risks....& having to do extra homework, is the "price". i really
don't "buy" any argument from any person over "hurt
feelings"...after all it's a business relationship.

fyi~ i have looked into the sponser here? he has very professional
contracts that reduces most of the risks. good luck , in your
future trips-dvc or not.