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Old 08-06-2012, 08:04 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by k5jmh View Post
The last 4x's I have seen it, the crowd only filled 1/3rd of the stand capacity. 2 of those were a Christmas time and 2 during the summer.
Then apparently we are having vastly different experiences because I have never seen it less than 90% full. Most recent viewing was early Feb 2012 and folks were packed into every nook and cranny.

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I think we are seeing the Lassiter/Jobs influence on the parks and even though Steve Jobs has passed, these are things that were set in motion long ago.
Lassiter was a driving force behind the DCA expansion and other recent enhancements to Disneyland (i.e. Nemo subs) but he doesn't appear to have any personal stake in what happens in Florida.

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After my tour of WDI last week, I can say with some certainty that Cars Land in DHS is a real thing. Only time will tell.
Among other "real things" at WDI are Beastly Kingdom, The Great Muppet Movie Ride, Disney's Persian Resort, Epcot's African pavilion and countless others. And let's not forget the parade of revisions to the Fantasyland upgrade. Just because Imagineering is pursuing a concept doesn't mean it is anywhere near bring green lit.

If Cars Land is approved for DHS, it will be a very sad day in my household. So much money spent on attraction clones. Would actually give me one less reason to want to visit WDW.
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Old 08-06-2012, 08:05 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by derekburgan View Post
That's why I said I'd like to see the numbers on how many people actually go to both parks. You say I'm a sample size of one, but I believe I represent a vast majority, to the point where the minority is statistically insignificant. I could be wrong on that, but I would love to see the breakdown of the people who come to WDW, the people who go to DL, and how many cross over. Maybe they have a million Premier Passport holders. I doubt it, but who knows. The fact that Disney puts many of the E-ticket or popular rides on both coasts leads me to believe their data tells them people are going to one or the other, not both.
As long as you know that, really, those aren't the number DISNEY is going to care about or use as a metric. Well, to some extent they will....but in any ONE given year...not so much (ie: they don't care if you're visiting BOTH parks in any given year).

What Disney wants to do is increase tourist traffic/standard ticket sales to DCA. NOT Disneyland (though that would be nice), per se. But they've just invested a ton (literally) of money in "fixing" DCA. Now they want to be able to justify those expenses to their shareholders...and make some money.

I would guess (though I don't have their data) that they want to maximize their big draw(s) and not put them 3000+ miles away where they might draw away guests....even if that number is relatively small.

They're at a pretty good saturation point, it seems, at WDW. I'm not sure how many more guests they'd draw, or how much longer they can keep current guests on property. So the (somewhat simplified) equation we're looking at is

+ Guests to DLR with Carsland compared +guests/+LOS at WDW with Carsland

And then you factor in which park has the higher SPG (spending per guest) and PPG (profit per guest).
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Old 08-06-2012, 08:12 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by derekburgan View Post
I think the biggest barrier to this is that there is just more to do in California than theme parks. I've been, or have had friends and family make three trips to California in the last few years. All of us enjoy theme parks and have been to WDW and Universal in Orlando. My friends took a trip to San Francisco. My girlfriend and I went to Coronado/San Diego, and her parents took a trip to Napa Valley. You mentioned unique experiences, but I think the average non-Dis Boarder would consider seeing the Golden Gate Bridge, or the Muir Woods, or Big Sur, or Alcatraz, or any number of California attractions more unique than say, riding the Matterhorn or the Nemo subs.
That would be the bigger barrier to a 3rd CA gate...and it would be surmountable.

Right now, DLR only has 2.5 days of your vacation covered (maybe slightly more right NOW because of the lines associated with Cars land..but those will ease off once the locals have had their fill). That leaves roughly 4 days of your vacation time unfilled....plenty of time to do other stuff around CA (if you can get past the travel times associated with doing those "other things").

Disney couldn't, even if they wanted to, do more than one more gate. They just don't have the land (and even the 3rd gate would be slightly removed from the first 2). They're never going to be able to pull off the week long, stand alone, destination that WDW is. I don't think they have to (or really want to).

And there is certainly a LOT to do in Florida (assuming the desire to "inflict" similar travel times from your hotel), too.
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Old 08-06-2012, 08:20 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by k5jmh View Post
Once again, I think a better fit for that area would not be Cars Land but another themed "land." After my tour of WDI last week, I can say with some certainty that Cars Land in DHS is a real thing. Only time will tell.
To be clear:

WDI often has LOTS of blue sky "stuff" laying around. Just because you saw models for it...it doesn't mean it's going to happen.

It means they considered some eventuality where it might happen, and they want plans, cost estimates, and general details ready to go.

I was lucky enough to get a private tour of a WDI facility while AK was being built. You'd be shocked to hear how much Beastly Kingdom material was laying around....
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Old 08-06-2012, 08:25 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by tjkraz View Post
Among other "real things" at WDI are Beastly Kingdom, The Great Muppet Movie Ride, Disney's Persian Resort, Epcot's African pavilion and countless others. And let's not forget the parade of revisions to the Fantasyland upgrade. Just because Imagineering is pursuing a concept doesn't mean it is anywhere near bring green lit.
Great minds and all that.
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Old 08-06-2012, 08:26 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by lockedoutlogic View Post
LOL...i post this - almost verbatim - on one thread or another on a weekly basis.
Are you sneaking into my head when i'm not watching?

But the reality is this - and we have it on this thread - when we get the "cars land..or whatever...is DEFINITELY coming to WDW"...they are missing the fundamental truth. And that is that neither MGM, nor AK are meant to entertain for the day - they are meant to redirect/ funnel.

There's no economic reason to put 500 million bucks into DHS...and that's why its not gonna happen. sorry, folks.

AK...however...I believe...was cut and slashed to become a funnel. I don't think that was the original intent or what they had planned. Mainly because animals are WAY too expensive to be justified as a funnel on the ledger sheet.
AK was the first in the eisnerian budget cut disasters that highlighted his exit form TWDC. Cut it and get it open, try to trump another opening across town, say "that's good enough"

If you look at it objectively, Disney built exactly one full concept park in Eisner's entire tenure - and it was the legendary Eurodisney.
Eurodisney is a fantastic park - it really is - probably my favorite "magic kingdom"...but all the bad press was too much for eisner's ego. So he never did it again. That, combined with the "Disney's America" debacle...was enough for him. It became strict cost accounting/ revenue stream generation from there on out...and we saw four bad parks built (excluding DisneySea...but the reality is that they didn't pay for it...it was like imagineers playing roller coaster tycoon in sandbox mode...free money)
The only way Disney invests in the parks is
a) they see significant slippage to Universal over the next 3 to 5 years
b) the typically vacation duration gets longer
c) Universal announces another gate

I worry about a) (and not because of WWOHP, per se, but more because of those new value rooms Uni announced...we'll see how they price them). I think b) and c) are unlikely.

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Ak and DHS have always been "it's there...so we might as go" for many travelers...but because they're on park hoppers doesn't mean they are getting ripped off.
I'm assuming there might be a typo above...and you mean't it doesn't mean they AREN'T getting ripped off?

If not, I'm not getting your point, especially given the below.

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The problem is that they are on vacation...and their brains didn't make it through the airport scanners most of the time.
Agree. Can't remember if it was this thread or another...I made the same point.

On vacation, that $6 bottle of water is "Just grab it, honey...we're on vacation"

At home, that $6 bottle of water is "What are THEY THINING??" and it sits on the shelf collecting dust.

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BUT...big but...the costs of those tickets and associated costs are increasing very rapidly when framed against the economic realities of the world/ united states.
Its no secret that the majority of ...americans at least...have not seen a raise and actually lost money from their pockets for over 30 years...so as they feel crunched with their stagnant earnings...does it then become necessary to start to gripe at the sacred vacation temple for not earning your money?

For the first time? Finally?

It used to be that whatever disney did was good enough and there was no question...but the world is changing, theres more out there and more people can do "cool" things outside of WDI...

When does the scale tip? Ten years ago i didn't think it was possible that it could...now...well...i'm not so sure.
We'll see. I think Disney grossly miscalculated with the AOA resort. That might be the first indication that they're having an issue accessing value for their market. There is a "vacation trinity" (lodging, food, activity...I leave out transportation because Disney has no control over that cost) of costs...and I think Disney is starting to price itself out of it's market. Given their product, and what they offer....I'm not sure they can be a super high end destination, in terms of cost to the traveler, and survive. They can be moderately high, because of the social "value"/keeping up with the Jones' that attaches itself to a WDW vacation.

But there is a certain price bracket (and I think they might be approaching it) where that social value is more of a social stigma. Combine that with the fact those folks tend to expect much more white glove service than Disney provides...and you're looking at running into trouble. Disney does not have the facilities to cater to that group (witness the 4 Seasons approach they took recently).

For other posters reading this who might get their hackles up: Keep in mind, I'm not talking about the majority of the DIS members. We (and yes, I include myself in this discussion) are the hardcore base. We're the fans. The thing is: We can't (or rather, we don't want to have to) keep WDW profitable on our own. Disney needs the "average" traveler to do that. They need your neighbors and their kids, who only think about Disney 3 or 4 times a year (when going to see the latest Pixar movie, when buying that movie on Blu-Ray, the day they call their travel agent to book their trip, and the week they spend in Orlando), to keep the money rolling in.
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Old 08-06-2012, 08:37 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by ChipnDale79 View Post
Someone made the comment that they believe that less than 1% of people go to both WDW and DL the same year, I would tend to agree with that.
It's all about growth. Whatever the number may be, convincing customers that Disneyland offers an experience comparable to WDW can only help. IF the number is < 1% today and Disney can grow it to 2 or 3%....think of the impact on the bottom line.

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The average person isn't going to both theme parks, I'm not flying all the way out to CA when WDW is a 8 hour drive south.
But the question I would ask is "are YOU average"? I'm assuming you live somewhere between SC / GA / AL. What about people in Michigan, Illinois, Arkansas, Texas, Louisiana and about 30 other states? If Cars Land serves as the "tipping point" to convince those guests Disneyland Resort is just as worthy of their dollars as WDW...big win for Disney.

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How many people do you guys know that have a boys that love the movie Cars? How many times have you heard people say that Disney is full of princesses? IMO, this is a game changer for Disney, it'll lure those people to WDW.
Think about this carefully. WDW already offers things like Star Tours, Space Mountain, Test Track, TSM, Buzz, Pirates, Mickey Mouse and more. It's widely regarded as THE premier family vacation destination.

Do you REALLY think that the presence of Cars Land would be the tipping point which finally makes parents say "we never saw the appeal of Walt Disney World before but NOW we want to go!"

Personally I don't see it. And that's why Disney has been pretty stingy with WDW spending in recent years, in my opinion.

At Disneyland, a change in perception was needed. DL has only two parks and one (DCA) was widely viewed as the worst park Disney has ever built. DCA attendance was 1/3 of Disneyland...and the two park entrances are literally 300' apart. Disney needed to deliver better quality in the DCA product if they want to grow their business on the west coast.

WDW already has a reputation of being a massive entertainment complex with something for everyone. True fans can nit pick DHS and DAK as half-day parks and point to the lack of expansions at Epcot. But WDW thrives on guests making once-in-a-lifetime or very infrequent visits. Those people have no concept of the stagnation, but will still visit anyway.

When it comes time to write the check, I really struggle to see how Iger / Staggs would throw $700M into DHS so cavalierly. IMO, they could get a similar impact simply by building the Monsters Inc coaster, cloning Mater's Junk Yard Jamboree and re-theming the playground to Bug's Life. There's your Pixar Place...at a price tag of a half-billion less than Cars Land.

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IMO, something is going to happen soon in the backlot area. There's too much area that's currently being wasted in a park that many people say is an embarrassment for WDW. Whether is a Monster Inc Coaster or a Cars land area, mark my words, something will happen.
Well, something WILL happen eventually. That's not much of a prognostication. But it's been an embarrassment for at least 5 years now without Disney bothering to act. We'll have to wait and see how much longer they decide to wait.
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Old 08-06-2012, 09:13 AM   #83
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Do you REALLY think that the presence of Cars Land would be the tipping point which finally makes parents say "we never saw the appeal of Walt Disney World before but NOW we want to go!"
Think about what was done at DCA, it wasn't the addition of a single dark ride, the addition of Cars Land was an addition of a whole new area.

If Cars Land is not the tipping point to bring people to WDW, is the new FLE expansion not a tipping point either?

To me its not, as a family with 2 boys the new FLE doesn't really do anything for us, but a Cars Land area will.
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Old 08-06-2012, 09:49 AM   #84
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I hope this is true, I watched a video on Cars Land in Disneyland and looks great!
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Old 08-06-2012, 09:56 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by ChipnDale79 View Post
Think about what was done at DCA, it wasn't the addition of a single dark ride, the addition of Cars Land was an addition of a whole new area.
The additions to DCA go far beyond just Cars Land. In the last 4 years or so, they've also added Ariel's Undersea Adventures, the World of Color nighttime show, re-themed a couple of attractions and cleaned up the embarrassing entrance and Paradise Pier sections. All was done with the goal of growing attendance.

To put some numbers to it, here is the WDW theme park attendance circa 2009 before the DCA enhancements began:

Magic Kingdom: 17 Mil
Epcot: 11 Mil
DHS: 9.5 Mil
DAK: 9.5 Mil

That's a pretty fair spread, IMO. Many day guests will only buy single-day passes to the Magic Kingdom and it stands to reason that others on park hoppers will visit MK more than the other two parks.

Now here are the numbers at Disneyland:

DL: 16 Mil
DCA: 6 Mil

It cannot be understated how close together the two parks are. No bus rides...no monorail trips...no boats. They share a parking structure. You don't even have to go through security a second time when park hopping. It takes TWO MINUTES to cross between the parks!

Yet Disney couldn't even get FORTY PERCENT of the people visiting DL to cross the plaza into DCA.

Growth potential.

The enhancements to DCA also emboldened management to increase ticket prices up to 35% (!!!) on some passes to DL. Do you really think WDW guests would accept such increases following the opening of a Cars Land at DHS?

(BTW, even with those increases DL passes are still cheaper than WDW.)

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If Cars Land is not the tipping point to bring people to WDW, is the new FLE expansion not a tipping point either?
No, it isn't IMO. Fantasyland was a knee-jerk attempt to counter Harry Potter at US. In the years since it was announced I suspect Disney has realized that WWoHP hasn't really hurt them. IoA witnessed dramatic gains but WDW hasn't decreased.

At the very least, I suspect the Disney execs will be cautious enough to fully gauge the impact of both Cars Land and Fantasyland before making similar investments. They've already committed $500M+ to Avatar--a deal which IS aimed at bringing in new business. "Cars" content is already present in the parks and Disney could increase it modestly without spending nearly as much as a Cars Land.

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To me its not, as a family with 2 boys the new FLE doesn't really do anything for us, but a Cars Land area will.
Really? So you aren't willing to spend more on a 4 hour flight to Disneyland but you will increase your spending at a WDW with Cars Land? In the abstract that's an easy claim to make but I suspect few people would actually follow through.

Recent history has shown that even with major additions to WDW, most people will still visit with a similar frequency and spend similar dollars. Disney learned this lesson with the Animal Kingdom theme park. 15 years ago the hope was that a 4th theme park would add dollars but, for the most part, the only thing that changed was where guests spent their money.

With a Cars Land instead of 2 days MK and 1 day DHS the pattern for some families may change to 1d MK, 2d DHS. Instead of buying an R2-D2 popcorn bucket they'll get a Cozy Cone bucket. Lunch at Cosmic Ray's becomes lunch at Flo's.

Ultimately a 7 day park hopping vacation is still a 7 day park hopping vacation. Why bother building the Cozy Cone and Flo's when people can still buy R2-D2 and dine at Cosmic Ray's?
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Old 08-06-2012, 10:10 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by ChipnDale79 View Post
To me its not, as a family with 2 boys the new FLE doesn't really do anything for us, but a Cars Land area will.
So..couple questions:

Do you currently have any WDW trips planned?

Are you saying you'd visit more frequently, and spend more money, than you do now if there was a Cars land? Not just "now" (as in, the year it opened), but in the future?

If your answer to the first question is no, and the answer to the second question is yes, I'd be shocked. I'd also strongly suspect you were in the minority.

I don't think either FLE or Cars land would be considered a "tipping point" for WDW. Not long term.

FLE is a nice refresh that's probably overdue and will generate some interest in MK. It's not going to, LONG term, bring more visitors to WDW. It's not going to convince visitors to extend their length of stay. I would be SHOCKED to see (in sum total) WDW park attendance to raise, considerably, at the resort..especially long term..because of FLE.
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Old 08-06-2012, 10:11 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by pilferk View Post
To be clear:

WDI often has LOTS of blue sky "stuff" laying around. Just because you saw models for it...it doesn't mean it's going to happen.

It means they considered some eventuality where it might happen, and they want plans, cost estimates, and general details ready to go.

I was lucky enough to get a private tour of a WDI facility while AK was being built. You'd be shocked to hear how much Beastly Kingdom material was laying around....
Let's be clear:

This is all speculation, since none of us knows anything and is really a moot point. I believe based on what I have seen and heard, this will happen. We can guess as to their reasoning for and against, but this is very much like guessing who shot J.R. We will find out when they want us know. FWIW, WDI does troll the boards and read what we say. I am sure they are giggling at us now.
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Old 08-06-2012, 10:22 AM   #88
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Let's be clear:

This is all speculation, since none of us knows anything and is really a moot point. I believe based on what I have seen and heard, this will happen. We can guess as to their reasoning for and against, but this is very much like guessing who shot J.R. We will find out when they want us know. FWIW, WDI does troll the boards and read what we say. I am sure they are giggling at us now.
I agree, it's all speculation. But that's rather the point.

Given the history....you can see clear why "I saw it at WDI" isn't going to be compelling reasoning when it comes to convincing people that it's ACTUALLY going to be built. Because there have been similar reports, and people have had similar experiences (and heard similar things from Imagineers) concerning projects that never got built, or were radically different than the "original" exposure to them. There is far too much "blue sky" planning that goes on within WDI, and the Imagineers (bless them) tend to get a tad overexcited by the stuff they're working on. They think EVERYTHING (well, not everything, but a LOT) is going to be built..when the reality is that only a fraction of it gets greenlighted for build out by the bean counters.

Again, I harken back to my tour through a WDI facility while AK was being built. Those employees were SURE that Beastly Kingdom was being built. They were happy to share limited stories and information about that area. There was art, modeling, etc...all related to BK.

It never got built. And it's not the first thing, nor the last thing, that has played out that way.

I'm not trying to sway you from your opinion or poo poo what you saw and heard.

But I'm trying to explain to you why that's not going to be enough to sway most of the veteran posters around the DIS. It's not YOUR credibility....it's THEIRS (WDI's). They're better than the bus drivers..but not by as much as you'd want them to be (let them "giggle" at that). I'm also trying to provide you with a bit of context in which to place all this.

Take it or leave it...your choice.
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Old 08-06-2012, 10:24 AM   #89
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I would think Disney would stand to make more $$ with unique attractions on the East and West Coasts... A lot of folks who might never have considered going to Disneyland are interested now with Cars Land at DCA... What's so wrong about something unique on the East Coast?
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Old 08-06-2012, 10:27 AM   #90
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Really? So you aren't willing to spend more on a 4 hour flight to Disneyland but you will increase your spending at a WDW with Cars Land? In the abstract that's an easy claim to make but I suspect few people would actually follow through.
No, I'm not willing to spend the money to fly 4 people from NC to CA just for Cars Land, air fare isnt cheap. But would it extend my stay or may keep my family from going to Universal while in Orlando, yeah probably.
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