So What's Coming to the New Pleasure Island?

[skier_pete]

Originally Posted by OldsDr

Does anyione think that if Florida does open Casinos and there is one in the WDW/Universial Neiborhood that Disney may then look into PI2 of some sorts to keep people on property instead of going to a casino at night. Or do you think that a Casino would not drag enough people off property for them to be concerned?

I think the Orlando entertainment companies (Disney/Unviersal/Sea World etc) will ban together to ensure that there is NEVER EVER EVER a casino within 30 miles of the theme parks. They have too much local power in that district to block anything being located near-by. In fact, I 'd sort of be surprised if it passes through the state.

[KINGBOBOFTHENORTH]

But was getting from Marketplace over to the West Side really ever that big of a deal or was that made-up nonsense? I can recall throngs of people walking from the Marketplace (and v.v.) along the sidewalk in front of PI and that led to a shortcut through the woods and over a different bridge that dropped people down into the West Side. Opening the Island to people without tickets did not make the West Side any closer.

Pete, unfortunately we're quite close to allowing casinos all over the state! Disney would have to react if ever one came nearby as casinos have a way of sucking the life out of competitors. I've seen it happen in Tampa.

BobK/Orlando

[doconeill]

Originally Posted by KINGBOBOFTHENORTH

But was getting from Marketplace over to the West Side really ever that big of a deal or was that made-up nonsense? I can recall throngs of people walking from the Marketplace (and v.v.) along the sidewalk in front of PI and that led to a shortcut through the woods and over a different bridge that dropped people down into the West Side. Opening the Island to people without tickets did not make the West Side any closer.

BobK/Orlando

From what I remember, yes there was a path, but it was non-obvious that it was there - or that anyone knew the other side existed. I remember on our first trip where we went to DTD, we parked over at Westside, and never knew the Marketplace existed until a later trip - and we went several nights that week.

It was a common complaint from what I remember.

[Jason71]

WDW is too strong to allow casinos in Orange County--more for fear of competition for conventions and hotel guests than keeping the area "family-friendly."

Also, keep in mind we already have plenty of gambling in central Florida, and they guard their turf jealously. The Daytona and Seminole "dog tracks" (the dog tracks are loss-leaders for the real money, poker rooms) would no doubt team up with the Seminoles in Tampa to do whatever they can to stop any casino along I-4. Google "Debary and horse racing" if you want to get an idea of how strongly the existing guys oppose competiton.

[nytimez]

Originally Posted by skier_pete

I think the Orlando entertainment companies (Disney/Unviersal/Sea World etc) will ban together to ensure that there is NEVER EVER EVER a casino within 30 miles of the theme parks. They have too much local power in that district to block anything being located near-by. In fact, I 'd sort of be surprised if it passes through the state.

Originally Posted by Jason71

WDW is too strong to allow casinos in Orange County--more for fear of competition for conventions and hotel guests than keeping the area "family-friendly."

Also, keep in mind we already have plenty of gambling in central Florida, and they guard their turf jealously. The Daytona and Seminole "dog tracks" (the dog tracks are loss-leaders for the real money, poker rooms) would no doubt team up with the Seminoles in Tampa to do whatever they can to stop any casino along I-4. Google "Debary and horse racing" if you want to get an idea of how strongly the existing guys oppose competiton.

Don't be so sure. Florida is rapidly growing broke and the pols see this as a quick way to raise cash and create jobs. As long as the Florida economy remains in the toilet, you can bet (ha) this has a chance of becoming reality.

I'm not saying I support or oppose. I just think there might be too much money on the table for even Disney to block (Disney, by the way, is aggressively lobbying the same state legislature for a law that would give it a big tax break for expanding WWoS).

[Jason71]

NYTimez, don't get me wrong, I wouldn't bet against (no pun intended) casinos coming to Miami, and probably the Panhandle, in the next few years. Maybe somewhere on the SW coast as well, like Fort Myers area--lot of retirees there, but I confess I don't know a lot about that area. However, I think they closest they get to Orlando would be Daytona, assuming the France family (the power behind NASCAR) decides they want to get into that business. And even then it would be a fight.

[lockedoutlogic]

Originally Posted by nytimez

Don't be so sure. Florida is rapidly growing broke and the pols see this as a quick way to raise cash and create jobs. As long as the Florida economy remains in the toilet, you can bet (ha) this has a chance of becoming reality.

I'm not saying I support or oppose. I just think there might be too much money on the table for even Disney to block (Disney, by the way, is aggressively lobbying the same state legislature for a law that would give it a big tax break for expanding WWoS).

this is the truth...

even disney is not going to stop a casino if the state wants them...and i'm sure they want them.

Especially in the Convention Center/I-Drive/Sea World/Universal/ Outlet General Vacinity...

State governments have no revenue after the real estate and subsequent corporate revenue/ tax crisis...and the rug has been pulled out from under many after the expiration of the federal stimulus.

Dollars will trump disney...which is ironic since those two forces are usually on the same team.

Florida needs money and the taxes on gambling are easy money. Many other states have or are going this route.

I'll use my home state of PA as an example: they struggled for years after the end of largescale american industrial manufacturing and declining population/ tax base for almost 40 years...they passed slot parlors in 2006 or 2007...and the state placed locations in a geographic sprawl pattern to try to maximize revenues....

The casinos stink...but they opened and were an immediate hit. Drawing heavy volume off Atlantic City to the East and legalized slots and parlors in West Virginia to the West...

So a year or so down the line, they legalize all table games to make more money...again..a hit.

It's simple...they create tax revenue out of thin air...and its absolute. The taxes are flat on every penny spent....on revenue, not profit, its guaranteed.

So now a collapsed albatross of an industrial state now can get casino bucks...and frack...which is a separate more diabolical issue. But its a great big bandaid for pee poor states.

And florida, 75% of all money from travel, is right there too. They should never have gambled with real estate...as the effects are more devasting on a place that has no real business, government, or social basis. Everything was built for travel bucks and retirement demands from the WWII generation...by and large...and gambling is a very easy way to combat some of the problem.

Its gonna happen...and they will put them where they have A READY SUPPLY OF PEOPLE WITH CASH LOOKING FOR LEISURE

can you think of a spot or two?

I can

[JDinFL]

There are eight casinos all ready in Florida. One about an hour away from Disney.
They will put one in Orlando when Vegas gets a pro football or baseball team.
I can't see it happening.

[lockedoutlogic]

Originally Posted by JDinFL

There are eight casinos all ready in Florida. One about an hour away from Disney.
They will put one in Orlando when Vegas gets a pro football or baseball team.
I can't see it happening.

No offense...but you're being naive.

They will put casinos where they will generate maximum revenue...which equals maximum taxes.

And a city that was built to draw in millions of visitors who are all there with saved up vacation dollars looking to have a good time is the prime place to put it.

If no casinos come to the immediate orlando area...then disney really is the mob.

And to the point of "there are already casinos"...those are built on indian tribal grounds or offshore - where there are no bans on gambling - and are up to the discretion of the owners if they want them or not.

The state legalizing gambling - is entirely different.

And since i sit between atlantic city and pennsylvania ...now all gambling zones - i can tell you firsthand: the average age of a person sitting in front of a slot machine is about 85...senior love the one armed bandit...

so if anyone has any question as to whether or not florida is going to legalize gambling...bare that in mind...

[Emma1987]

Casino's should be kept for Vegas and Atlantic City.

A Casino on the Disney property would bring down the reputation of the Disney name I think.

[doconeill]

Originally Posted by Emma1987

Casino's should be kept for Vegas and Atlantic City.

A Casino on the Disney property would bring down the reputation of the Disney name I think.

Well, it's far too late to keep them in those places. They are many places now, and Massachusetts is in the process of legalizing it (with restrictions).

I don't think Disney would consider putting one on property. Just how close one will make it to property is the question.

But a bit of counter to LOL's argument - such things can be placed in other areas to boost tourism and development. It's not like Orlando need yet more traffic...

[lockedoutlogic]

Originally Posted by Emma1987

Casino's should be kept for Vegas and Atlantic City.

A Casino on the Disney property would bring down the reputation of the Disney name I think.

That would be ideal...

...but it is not inline with the economic realities in the United States.


We gambled with real estate...which used to be regulated and sacred. Now the damage will take decades to repair...and may not be reparable at all.

[lockedoutlogic]

Originally Posted by doconeill

But a bit of counter to LOL's argument - such things can be placed in other areas to boost tourism and development. It's not like Orlando need yet more traffic...

I agree...that is a goal as well...but they are often put in spots where they have a draw in place...

in new jersey...the state takes a flat (8 or i believe 9%) off the top of every dollar spent within the doors of the casino...no exceptions.

that money has built roads, paid for schools, fireman, cops, and departments/programs.

there is no denying the value.

In pennsylvania...they have tried to balance out where they placed them between "draw" and "redevelopment"

near pittsburgh - they put one right in the center of town next to the football and baseball stadiums...not exactly out in the boondocks.
they also put one at a racetrack that already had a good crowd 30 miles to the south.

in philly - they put one (sugarhouse) thats in the abandoned dock district in the center of town. they also put one a mile from the philly airport. they put one at a racetrack north of the city smack in the suburbs. Another is supposed to be built in south philly near some of the most popular tourist and nightlife spots - but has been tied up with red tape.

The poconos has one...ski draw. there's one an hour from harrisburg in god's country...
There are dueling agendas.

if florida does not put one near orlando...they are fools.

disney will whine...but they also will whine for more freebies as they always do...and florida knows where disney is at.

they aren't building 3 more parks and hiring 100,000 more people...or building 100,000 more traditional rooms that will generate resort tax...construction jobs and money generated will never reach their 1990s levels again. It's not even feasible.

they will give the state lots of money as they always have...but they are losing their ability to strong-arm policy. Its not like they are going to shut down or move...and they will not invest 10 or 100s of billions in central florida for what will be diminishing returns to them.

[nytimez]

Some interesting numbers from a recent Tampa Bay Times story:

From Oct. 1-Dec. 31, top donors to the Republican Party included Progress Energy ($220,000), casino interest Genting ($200,000) and Walt Disney World ($165,000). The Seminole Tribe, another gaming interest, gave $175,000.

The big givers to the Democratic Party were Disney ($155,000), the Seminole Tribe ($105,00) and Genting ($103,000). Those three groups are involved in a fight over bringing three resort-style casinos to the state.

A committee affiliated with Republican Gov. Rick Scott, Let's Get to Work, raised $437,000 in the last half of 2011, including $100,000 from the Florida Retail Federation.

Gambling money was a theme throughout most of the fundraising reports.

One of the most vociferous opponents to the casino proposal, Walt Disney World companies, donated $672,000 to the parties and lawmaker committees in the second half of 2011. Florida Jobs PAC, a committee affiliated with the Florida Chamber of Commerce, another casino critic, donated $370,000.

But supporter Genting brought its checkbook, contributing $509,000, too.

[lockedoutlogic]

Originally Posted by nytimez

Some interesting numbers from a recent Tampa Bay Times story:

From Oct. 1-Dec. 31, top donors to the Republican Party included Progress Energy ($220,000), casino interest Genting ($200,000) and Walt Disney World ($165,000). The Seminole Tribe, another gaming interest, gave $175,000.

The big givers to the Democratic Party were Disney ($155,000), the Seminole Tribe ($105,00) and Genting ($103,000). Those three groups are involved in a fight over bringing three resort-style casinos to the state.

A committee affiliated with Republican Gov. Rick Scott, Let's Get to Work, raised $437,000 in the last half of 2011, including $100,000 from the Florida Retail Federation.

Gambling money was a theme throughout most of the fundraising reports.

One of the most vociferous opponents to the casino proposal, Walt Disney World companies, donated $672,000 to the parties and lawmaker committees in the second half of 2011. Florida Jobs PAC, a committee affiliated with the Florida Chamber of Commerce, another casino critic, donated $370,000.

But supporter Genting brought its checkbook, contributing $509,000, too.

pennsylvania allowing it and massachusetts following are pretty damning...
as the blues still win 98% of the battles when push comes to shove, and blues don't like gambling.

its just simple numbers...the people give you their earned money back if you open casinos...and it never gets old to them.

That's it...florida needs the money...theres no other way to get it. Travel will be hurting for awhile longer...maybe permanently.

Casinos are both a temporary and a longterm solution.

Not only will Disney lose this one....down the road, don't be surprised if a "foreign company" becomes an investor in casinos that call Team D in Burbank about 8000 times a day.