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Plans have been filed for DVC expansion at Caribbean Beach Resort

It's actually a terrible idea. They thought connecting the concourse would be cute...but would have been better built closer to the ground to cut the wind effect.

I don't get it AT ALL. I mean, if you're staying at BLT, you have to take the elevator up or down to get to the walkway (unless you get a room on the 4th floor. I think it's the 4th or could be the 5th at BLT) and then if you just want to go to the monorail, you're taking the elevator up at the CR.

Then add the incredible WIND when you're up there... I'm scared of heights to begin with and this thing is TERRIFYING to me.
 
Well, again, I'm just proposing the walkway - there's lots of options they would have. Without some sort of rapid/direct access they could definitely have sales issues. They may be arrogant enough to say it will sell regardless though. As I said earlier, I just don't see them selling an OKW/SSR/AKV at today's price points. Even AKV at least has super-close proximinity to DAK, and a beautiful resort with all the animals. What will a CBR DVC have to appeal to those people that have $20,000 - $50,000 to plop down for a vacation investment.

That's why I think we're off base. I would be more likely to agree with LOL's theory it's a tower based off the AoA suite designs.
 
That's why I think we're off base. I would be more likely to agree with LOL's theory it's a tower based off the AoA suite designs.

Except for one thing - I don't think Disney would knock down moderate rooms to make more moderate rooms. IF they wanted moderate suites, they would just take existing buildings, and use the adjoining rooms to make suites like they did at All-Star Music.

Remember, since 2001 - Disney has built ONE new commercial resort (AOA), and it was a partially finished resort with an existing footprint.

In that same time, they've built SEVEN DVC resorts on WDW property (BCV, SSR, AKV-Jambo & Kidani, BLT, VGF, Poly, WLV 2.0) - not even mentioning VGC and Aulani. And in doing so, have taken literally THOUSANDS of regular rooms out of inventory in the process. Meanwhile, they still can't fill the hotel side, yet DVC manages near 100% occupancy.

Combine that with the fact that strong rumors have been out for about 18 months that CBR was being eyed as the next DVC after Wilderness Lodge - I think the likelyhood that this is some sort of moderate resort re-do...nope this is DVC.
 
Except for one thing - I don't think Disney would knock down moderate rooms to make more moderate rooms. IF they wanted moderate suites, they would just take existing buildings, and use the adjoining rooms to make suites like they did at All-Star Music.

Remember, since 2001 - Disney has built ONE new commercial resort (AOA), and it was a partially finished resort with an existing footprint.

In that same time, they've built SEVEN DVC resorts on WDW property (BCV, SSR, AKV-Jambo & Kidani, BLT, VGF, Poly, WLV 2.0) - not even mentioning VGC and Aulani. And in doing so, have taken literally THOUSANDS of regular rooms out of inventory in the process. Meanwhile, they still can't fill the hotel side, yet DVC manages near 100% occupancy.

Combine that with the fact that strong rumors have been out for about 18 months that CBR was being eyed as the next DVC after Wilderness Lodge - I think the likelyhood that this is some sort of moderate resort re-do...nope this is DVC.


Ok. Yes, I would agree with you, BUT they only made 6 of these family suites and their demand led to the concept for AoA. They're not going to take away moderate rooms to make suites, they're going to build suites, imo. Now whether these are DVC suites is a different story and I just don't think they are or at least don't WANT to believe they are
 


This horrifying wind that people speak of, when does it happen? I've stayed at BLT a lot over the last 4 years and haven't experienced anything more than a stiff breeze except the one time there was a big thunderstorm.
 
This horrifying wind that people speak of, when does it happen? I've stayed at BLT a lot over the last 4 years and haven't experienced anything more than a stiff breeze except the one time there was a big thunderstorm.

Really? You've never experienced high winds when using the outside concourse to cross from BLT to CR and vice versa?
 
Except for one thing - I don't think Disney would knock down moderate rooms to make more moderate rooms. IF they wanted moderate suites, they would just take existing buildings, and use the adjoining rooms to make suites like they did at All-Star Music.

Remember, since 2001 - Disney has built ONE new commercial resort (AOA), and it was a partially finished resort with an existing footprint.

In that same time, they've built SEVEN DVC resorts on WDW property (BCV, SSR, AKV-Jambo & Kidani, BLT, VGF, Poly, WLV 2.0) - not even mentioning VGC and Aulani. And in doing so, have taken literally THOUSANDS of regular rooms out of inventory in the process. Meanwhile, they still can't fill the hotel side, yet DVC manages near 100% occupancy.

Combine that with the fact that strong rumors have been out for about 18 months that CBR was being eyed as the next DVC after Wilderness Lodge - I think the likelyhood that this is some sort of moderate resort re-do...nope this is DVC.

I realize all that and that's why I continually state something similar when the silly "Star Wars hotel next to the tower of terror at the price of port orleans" ideas get discussed...

But there are two difference here:
1. Caribbean has neither the facilities nor the footprint to support a dvc. And a "standalone compound" kinda like bay lake doesn't work because they still have the monorail, chef Mickey's and the California grill. Dvc is a prickly sort...you're not gonna swap "shutters" for yachtsman steakhouse and get very many smiles or bookings.
2. The suite at moderate prices idea is a little different...because they do blatanly rip off the suites at AoA that they've proven that there is a market for bigger rooms with little amenities. Those are $400 a night...$550 caribbean suites would probably sell. That might change the operational perspective.
 


Really? You've never experienced high winds when using the outside concourse to cross from BLT to CR and vice versa?

Oh it happens...you get a pelting sideways rain in a storm and get a little vertigo when the wind blows.

Not a great idea off the drawing board
 
A couple things just do not compute.
I find it very odd, they'd take down Barbados, to create additional lodging, when there is possibly and open spot in the same complex across from South Trinidad.

So the only thing that makes sense within the picture of this resort, is they want to be closer to epcot. Fireworks viewing could happen from a tower at South Trinidad for DHS and Epcot. I guess the advantage is that maybe you could see the globe through the corridor of African outpost and Germany. You'd end up with more beds and no destruction costs. You'd end up with food service in that location which would be a welcome convenience for much of the resort as it's more spread out.

Can't think of why that location makes more sense in the complex unless the location gives it direct walking access to Epcot. Any other transportation connection works just as well from the open building spot.

Factors could be that open spot in the complex is NOT suitable for building. It could also mean that something else is earmarked for the spot. I'm not sure why they wouldn't build there first, unless they need the infrastructure of the Barbados building first.
 
Really? You've never experienced high winds when using the outside concourse to cross from BLT to CR and vice versa?

You do know you can walk to CR on the grounds correct? The walkway is an additional option.

We use it often because the liquor and food store for our kitchen is right off of it, much faster.

Also the regular store and and food court as well.

They could easily enclose it if it's as big of an issue as presented here.

New D Springs bridges are open as well.

As for CBR, why enclose it when you step on and off from the elements anyway, a roof for rain yes.
 
IF this ends up being a DVC expansion... why is it so difficult to believe that Disney could build, market, and sell an actual moderate DVC, with moderate sized rooms and moderate amenities?

I've seen three general arguments against this. The most concrete is the idea that lowering point values means fewer points to sell, and that the cost to build the facility is the same regardless of whether they build a moderate or deluxe, thus lower profit. But this is only partially true. Smaller rooms mean you can fit more rooms into the same space, offsetting the impact of the lower point allocations. And while there is probably some fixed overhead cost in putting up the building, I'm sure there are choices that they can make to reduce finishing costs, or leave out more expensive elements (like a fancy pool) to reduce overall cost. That might all still add up to a somewhat reduced profit margin, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the project is not viable or worthwhile; if it did, there would be no value resorts.

The second argument, less directly stated than assumed, seems to be that DVC == Deluxe, and that a moderate DVC operating within the existing system is simply antithetical. The assumption is that including a moderate resort would hurt the brand, thus devaluing the whole system. And it's true that DVC is frequently marketed as a means of "staying in a deluxe accommodation at the price of a moderate". But in the case of a moderate DVC, couldn't that simply be reframed as "staying in a moderate accommodation at the price of a value resort"? There is a huge segment of Disney-going families who simply can't afford DVC as it currently exists. If you reduce the cost (by reducing the number of points required to stay, not the upfront cost of those points), you open up a whole new demographic of potential buyers. To some extent I think that DVD must realize that they're pricing out a huge portion of the market. A moderate option would give them a way to address this, without necessarily impacting the "deluxe" side of the business. Those who want and can afford deluxe need not buy or stay at CBR - they can still buy at Poly or the new Wilderness Lodge or whatever comes after that.

Which brings me to the third argument: that a moderate option would throw the system out of balance. This one is tough to assess. It *could* introduce imbalance, but it's anyone's guess whether the stampede would be away from CBR to the deluxe resorts, or *toward* the cheaper rooms at CBR from deluxe owners. My own guess would be that the latter is more likely. The fact that the cheaper room categories (studio, standard view) and cheaper seasons (early December!) are so popular shows that there is a strong demand by existing owners for lower-cost options. Sure, all those moderate owners would no doubt also look to book at near-park resorts occasionally, or even regularly, but their 50 point contracts won't go far at VGF or Poly. The resorts most likely to lose here remain SSR and OKW, as value-seekers flock to the lower-cost moderate, and those trading up will be wanting park proximity.

Anyway, I'm not arguing that a truly moderate DVC is in the works at CBR, only that I don't think the idea is wholly implausible.
 
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You do know you can walk to CR on the grounds correct? The walkway is an additional option.

We use it often because the liquor and food store for our kitchen is right off of it, much faster.

Also the regular store and and food court as well.

They could easily enclose it if it's as big of an issue as presented here.

New D Springs bridges are open as well.

As for CBR, why enclose it when you step on and off from the elements anyway, a roof for rain yes.

Yeah I know it's possible and there are times when I do it because the winds scare me a bit, but since they closed it in a little it's not as bad.
 
A couple things just do not compute.
I find it very odd, they'd take down Barbados, to create additional lodging, when there is possibly and open spot in the same complex across from South Trinidad.

So the only thing that makes sense within the picture of this resort, is they want to be closer to epcot. Fireworks viewing could happen from a tower at South Trinidad for DHS and Epcot. I guess the advantage is that maybe you could see the globe through the corridor of African outpost and Germany. You'd end up with more beds and no destruction costs. You'd end up with food service in that location which would be a welcome convenience for much of the resort as it's more spread out.

Can't think of why that location makes more sense in the complex unless the location gives it direct walking access to Epcot. Any other transportation connection works just as well from the open building spot.

Factors could be that open spot in the complex is NOT suitable for building. It could also mean that something else is earmarked for the spot. I'm not sure why they wouldn't build there first, unless they need the infrastructure of the Barbados building first.

I think that is a key point - unless there was something wrong with those buildings that needed attention anyway - why knockdown existing rooms when there is plenty of other land that could be used ..... unless there is something very important/key with using that location.

Given that the location is further away from the International Gateway than building at the other end of the resort, but closer to the back of WS as the crow flies, I DO think it could be about the view. If they build a tower like BLT where a lot of the rooms have Firework/Illumination/Drone Show views and they add a roof top bar ... and add a TS restaurant and highly themed pool or whatever - then there is value and people are still buying DVC
 
IF this ends up being a DVC expansion... why is it so difficult to believe that Disney could build, market, and sell an actual moderate DVC, with moderate sized rooms and moderate amenities?

I've seen three general arguments against this. The most concrete is the idea that lowering point values means fewer points to sell, and that the cost to build the facility is the same regardless of whether they build a moderate or deluxe, thus lower profit. But this is only partially true. Smaller rooms means you can fit more rooms into the same space, offsetting the impact of the lower point allocations. And while there is probably some fixed overhead cost in putting up the building, I'm sure there are choices that they can make to reduce finishing costs, or leave out more expensive elements (like a fancy pool) to reduce overall cost. That might all still add up to a somewhat reduced profit margin, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the project is not viable or worthwhile; if it did, there would be no value resorts.

The second argument, less directly stated than assumed, seems to be that DVC == Deluxe, and that a moderate DVC operating within the existing system is simply antithetical. The assumption is that including a moderate resort would hurt the brand, thus devaluing the whole system. And it's true that DVC is frequently marketed as a means of "staying in a deluxe accommodation at the price of a moderate". But in the case of a moderate DVC, couldn't that simply be reframed as "staying in a moderate accommodation at the price of a value resort"? There is a huge segment of Disney-going families who simply can't afford DVC as it currently exists. If you reduce the cost (by reducing the number of points required to stay, not the upfront cost of those points), you open up a whole new demographic of potential buyers. To some extent I think that DVD must realize that they're pricing out a huge portion of the market. A moderate option would give them a way to address this, without necessarily impacting the "deluxe" side of the business. Those who want and can afford deluxe need not buy or stay at CBR - they can still buy at Poly or the new Wilderness Lodge or whatever comes after that.

Which brings me to the third argument: that a moderate option would throw the system out of balance. This one is tough to assess. It *could* introduce imbalance, but it's anyone's guess whether the stampede would be away from CBR to the deluxe resorts, or *toward* the cheaper rooms at CBR from deluxe owners. My own guess would be that the latter is more likely. The fact that the cheaper room categories (studio, standard view) and cheaper seasons (early December!) are so popular shows that there is a strong demand by existing owners for lower-cost options. Sure, all those moderate owners would no doubt also look to book at near-park resorts occasionally, or even regularly, but their 50 point contracts won't go far at VGF or Poly. The resorts most likely to lose here remain SSR and OKW, as value-seekers flock to the lower-cost moderate, and those trading up will be wanting park proximity.

Anyway, I'm not arguing that a truly moderate DVC is in the works at CBR, only that I don't think the idea is wholly implausible.

Ok, let me put this argument out there. I own at GF and Poly, the two most expensive properties on property (point wise). My points are worth approximately $15 per point. If we take an average cost of GF at 24 points per night, that gives GF a value of $360. That's a pretty good deal for a $600/night room. Now, take the going rate of SSR. It's about 12-14 points per night to stay there. Use my valuation at $15 and that means it's $210/night. Not so great on a $300 room, but if I have the points sitting, I might burn them there. So, we've given GF a value of $360 and SSR $210. Now, that means we have to be able to save money off a normally $180/night room that usually has discounts bringing it in line around $160. That means this room would have to be a max of 10 points per night to fall in line with the current point valuation. There's no way they're selling 10 ptpn rooms. That means someone with a contract of 100 points can stay there for 10 days. Not happening.
 
I think that is a key point - unless there was something wrong with those buildings that needed attention anyway - why knockdown existing rooms when there is plenty of other land that could be used ..... unless there is something very important/key with using that location.

Given that the location is further away from the International Gateway than building at the other end of the resort, but closer to the back of WS as the crow flies, I DO think it could be about the view. If they build a tower like BLT where a lot of the rooms have Firework/Illumination/Drone Show views and they add a roof top bar ... and add a TS restaurant and highly themed pool or whatever - then there is value and people are still buying DVC
If this is a dvc...then your approach is likely.

But I don't have interest in it. Not one bit. No desire to hear "Bon Bini" on points...

This recent obsession with fireworks viewing has gotten insane.

First...they're really old fireworks...second...they've reduced the shows proving they don't really care.
Third...the rise in "firework view" obsession has conveniently corresponded to a period in time where they had forgotten how to build things. Parks now get something new every 8 years. I don't see that as a coincidence.

Demand more.
 
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IF this ends up being a DVC expansion... why is it so difficult to believe that Disney could build, market, and sell an actual moderate DVC, with moderate sized rooms and moderate amenities?

I've seen three general arguments against this. The most concrete is the idea that lowering point values means fewer points to sell, and that the cost to build the facility is the same regardless of whether they build a moderate or deluxe, thus lower profit. But this is only partially true. Smaller rooms mean you can fit more rooms into the same space, offsetting the impact of the lower point allocations. And while there is probably some fixed overhead cost in putting up the building, I'm sure there are choices that they can make to reduce finishing costs, or leave out more expensive elements (like a fancy pool) to reduce overall cost. That might all still add up to a somewhat reduced profit margin, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the project is not viable or worthwhile; if it did, there would be no value resorts.

The second argument, less directly stated than assumed, seems to be that DVC == Deluxe, and that a moderate DVC operating within the existing system is simply antithetical. The assumption is that including a moderate resort would hurt the brand, thus devaluing the whole system. And it's true that DVC is frequently marketed as a means of "staying in a deluxe accommodation at the price of a moderate". But in the case of a moderate DVC, couldn't that simply be reframed as "staying in a moderate accommodation at the price of a value resort"? There is a huge segment of Disney-going families who simply can't afford DVC as it currently exists. If you reduce the cost (by reducing the number of points required to stay, not the upfront cost of those points), you open up a whole new demographic of potential buyers. To some extent I think that DVD must realize that they're pricing out a huge portion of the market. A moderate option would give them a way to address this, without necessarily impacting the "deluxe" side of the business. Those who want and can afford deluxe need not buy or stay at CBR - they can still buy at Poly or the new Wilderness Lodge or whatever comes after that.

Which brings me to the third argument: that a moderate option would throw the system out of balance. This one is tough to assess. It *could* introduce imbalance, but it's anyone's guess whether the stampede would be away from CBR to the deluxe resorts, or *toward* the cheaper rooms at CBR from deluxe owners. My own guess would be that the latter is more likely. The fact that the cheaper room categories (studio, standard view) and cheaper seasons (early December!) are so popular shows that there is a strong demand by existing owners for lower-cost options. Sure, all those moderate owners would no doubt also look to book at near-park resorts occasionally, or even regularly, but their 50 point contracts won't go far at VGF or Poly. The resorts most likely to lose here remain SSR and OKW, as value-seekers flock to the lower-cost moderate, and those trading up will be wanting park proximity.

Anyway, I'm not arguing that a truly moderate DVC is in the works at CBR, only that I don't think the idea is wholly implausible.

You're talking about a second dvc pool.

If the longstanding members have to jostle with "moderate" points to book beach club, Boardwalk, the contemporary...then they will get frustrared and dump their point to resale or rent.

The problem with that...is that those owners are the ones that have spent the most are still likely to spend the most going forward.

Disney likes to act "next man up"...but they know better. They have to dance a fine line between not alienating the core and drawing the new gullible in...

It's like snake charming...don't get bit.
 
Ok, let me put this argument out there. I own at GF and Poly, the two most expensive properties on property (point wise). My points are worth approximately $15 per point. If we take an average cost of GF at 24 points per night, that gives GF a value of $360. That's a pretty good deal for a $600/night room. Now, take the going rate of SSR. It's about 12-14 points per night to stay there. Use my valuation at $15 and that means it's $210/night. Not so great on a $300 room, but if I have the points sitting, I might burn them there. So, we've given GF a value of $360 and SSR $210. Now, that means we have to be able to save money off a normally $180/night room that usually has discounts bringing it in line around $160. That means this room would have to be a max of 10 points per night to fall in line with the current point valuation. There's no way they're selling 10 ptpn rooms. That means someone with a contract of 100 points can stay there for 10 days. Not happening.

Excellent explanation...though I laugh at your "values" for the grand...that place is as big of a ripoff as any...

Point taken though
 
You do know you can walk to CR on the grounds correct? The walkway is an additional option.

We use it often because the liquor and food store for our kitchen is right off of it, much faster.

Also the regular store and and food court as well.

They could easily enclose it if it's as big of an issue as presented here.

New D Springs bridges are open as well.

As for CBR, why enclose it when you step on and off from the elements anyway, a roof for rain yes.

Because it's hot as hell and this path wouldn't be nearly as short as its being made out here. The parking lot form the garages at springs or the breezeway at contemporary is not a good comparison.

People won't like the Bataan Death March in the heat and they will complain, look for other options.
 
Not at all...but the moderates are the worst and have been for along time.

To take it a step further, why build there as opposed to some place else? There has to be other places for a DVC add-on property that make more sense than this one.
Why bother if you can't/won't do the direct access?

You're missing the point on why CBR is so much more attractive for DVC expansion over other moderate resorts or even another deluxe resort. By it's location or proximity to the parks alone, it really should be a deluxe resort. Obviously, because of it's age, layout, lack of accessibility to parks, and any number of reasons you can think of it's considered moderate. You have to get over this idea that this DVC at CBR is going to be a moderate. DVC and most importantly a new form of direct access changes most of that. It transforms an aging, under-performing property into a gold mine. I don't consider adding an extra stop on the Friendship Boat routes to be a logistical nightmare. It actually is the cheapest and simplest option with the most upside. The direct access will happen, it's just so simple and inexpensive it doesn't need to be permitted yet. When is the last time a DVC was built in the swamp or marketed without easy access to the parks?

Do you doubt the suits would miss out on an opportunity to jack up rack rate rooms at CBR without doing any type of significant upgrade to the rest of the property? CRB as it currently stands could be related to a trailer park sitting on ocean front property. Drop a deluxe DVC with park access on the same property and the value of the rest of the rack rate rooms increase. No low ball point per night rate or changes to the DVC model needed. Huge profit to be had just for digging an over sized ditch and building a boat dock.
 

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